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Old 13-07-2012, 20:37   #226
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by Jbaffoh View Post
Ok, then let me be more specific: Navionics Gold+ charts show far cruder coastline contours and topographic information than NOAA charts for Alaska and California.
I have not cruised Alaska and California, but I thought electronic NOAA maps were available.
If NOAA is the best map source of the local area available It would be sensible to use to use these maps in electronic or paper format rather than Navionics.
There is no one ideal map provider. I use maxsea, Navionics and c-maps, often one is much better than the other. The same is true for paper charts.
A big advantage of electronic charts is the cheap price and easy storage enable multiple map formats of the same area to used.
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Old 13-07-2012, 20:42   #227
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If you have a laptop rose point or nobletec are great chart programs. Rose Point is the best in my opinion plus you can download the notice to mariner updates to the program to insure your charts are up to date. Both programs use vector and raster charts btw.
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Old 13-07-2012, 21:02   #228
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by elliebell View Post
Ahh solar panels. didn't see that in the original post, so that answers that question.
That is quite a system of backup of backups you have going there. Call me silly, but wouldn't it be easier to just have 2 copies of paper charts and the knowledge to use them. I mean, at what point are you just with all the redundancy, not to mention the cost of it all, timewise/maintenance/dollar value. 1000 L tanks do run out of diesel too, and last I looked around, the world is growing, and we(america) aren't the only ones so interested in the stuff and there just isn't that much of it around anymore(like quality 316 and bronze now). Good luck finding 1000 L of diesel near enough to the water(probably not gonna jerryjug that, huh?) if you find yourself very far off the beaten path.

As far as comparing a mast or rudder to electrical charts... Not really comparable systems in my opinion. apples and oranges.
The diesel supply is not designed intended to keep the electrics going, but has chosen to provide a large range under power, which is helpful crusing some of the more remote parts of the wold where fuel is hard to get.
95% of our electrical supply comes from solar so diesel storage is not a factor.

The iPads and laptops have been mostly purchased for other purposes, but nevertheless perform as a good backup to the dedicated marine units like chartplotters and handheld Mapping GPS units.

Paper and electronic charts require similar skills to use. I started sailing before GPS units were available so I can navigate comfortably (including cellestial navigation) without these modern marvels, but many people are confusing electronic maps with GPS, when the two technologies do different things.
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Old 13-07-2012, 21:19   #229
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Okay, I get it now. Happy sailing
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Old 13-07-2012, 21:25   #230
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by elliebell View Post
Ahh solar panels. didn't see that in the original post, so that answers that question.
That is quite a system of backup of backups you have going there. Call me silly, but wouldn't it be easier to just have 2 copies of paper charts and the knowledge to use them. I mean, at what point are you just with all the redundancy, not to mention the cost of it all, timewise/maintenance/dollar value. 1000 L tanks do run out of diesel too, and last I looked around, the world is growing, and we(america) aren't the only ones so interested in the stuff and there just isn't that much of it around anymore(like quality 316 and bronze now). Good luck finding 1000 L of diesel near enough to the water(probably not gonna jerryjug that, huh?) if you find yourself very far off the beaten path.

As far as comparing a mast or rudder to electrical charts... Not really comparable systems in my opinion. apples and oranges.

It's my turn:


The electronics are USEFUL. They are not superior to paper. They are a valuable ADDITION to paper. If you don't know them, then you have not used a chart plotter (or, have not done it well). So ... I'm sorry but you just don't know what you're talking about. Of course anything can be taken to an extreme, overkill situation, but if you don't know how to use the two (paper and electronic) together intelligently, you haven't done it. You were probably too stubborn to learn how to use the electronic. If you'd been on my boat (someone actually acted that way on my boat once) I would have put you off with bus fare home and called it a good deal.
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Old 13-07-2012, 21:39   #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames

But you're missing the point here by dremaing up "The Sky is Falling" scenarios.

No one here uses only electronics except one person, the original poster.

It's a non-issue for the great majority here. Pardon the apparent sarcasm, but when people say things like "Electronics can fail," They're acting as if people who use electronics are ... stupid or something.

EVERYONE knows electronics can fail. For that matter, an unexpectedly large wave could wash over your cockpit and blow your chart overboard.

Stuff happens.
No not dreamed up. A near lightning strike can wipe out all data on a gps handheld or not. This has happened before.i have met real sailors that experienced this.. Gos can fail. Someone suggested that a hand held was fail safe well it's not that's bad information.
Real experience my gps failed at night near the termination of the C and D canal. I had paper in the cockpit I was singlehanded. I knew where I was. I wasn't happy but I immediately was able to determine a compass course and where I was on a chart that was not electronic. I came into cape Henlopen single handed and the gos was way off. There were advisories about unreliable gos data. I had paper charts and the tools to negotiate into a safe harbor after a several day solo passage.
I guess I'm trying to back up what I say with some real life experience. Not sure what point your trying to make. Some cheap paper back up is food. Knowing how to use bearings and some old simple tools is fun and good. Coming into a pitch black port and knowing your **** is right on that's priceless.
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Old 13-07-2012, 22:34   #232
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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I didn't say people have it, I said that there are legal ways to avoid paper charts. And having a ECDIS system installed does allow you to operate without carrying paper charts. But you are correct in that a off the shelf system is not likely to comply, but they are more like $25,000, not $100,000. Basic units start at around $15,000, so while quite expensive, not unreachable for high end yachts.

And since they include a number of other monitors in addition to just a chart plotter the price may not be so outrageous compared to a whole electronics suite.

And most nations do not require paper charts anymore. They require you to meet SOLAS requirements, which means paper+a normal chartplotter, or an ECDIS system with electronic backup.
Each of our ECDIS equipped vessels cost between $80 to $90k for them to comply with IMO/SOLAS requirements of not needing to carry paper charts.

The prices you quote are just for a single console that may or may not be type approved, and to comply under IMO/SOLAS requirements (as you have indicated) to be able to operate without paper charts, you are required to have two type approved ECDIS units with completely independent power sources and are only allowed to use type approved electronic charts, plus a whole raft of other requirements that cost $$$

Just the consoles still in the box on my last ship cost USD$35k each...

Yes you can go out and buy two cheaper non-type approved ECDIS units and fit them, but does that make you compliant under IMO/SOLAS requirements to be able to forgo paper charts?.....unfortunately not....

Here in Australia you could have a dozen such non-type approved units onboard but will still be required to carry paper charts, the same goes for any Flag State that has signed acceptance of IMO circular letter 2666 regarding the use of ECDIS as a primary source of navigation....
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Old 13-07-2012, 22:51   #233
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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It's my turn:


The electronics are USEFUL. They are not superior to paper. They are a valuable ADDITION to paper. If you don't know them, then you have not used a chart plotter (or, have not done it well). So ... I'm sorry but you just don't know what you're talking about. Of course anything can be taken to an extreme, overkill situation, but if you don't know how to use the two (paper and electronic) together intelligently, you haven't done it. You were probably too stubborn to learn how to use the electronic. If you'd been on my boat (someone actually acted that way on my boat once) I would have put you off with bus fare home and called it a good deal.
I'll buy a good Addition to paper charts, but when has the conversation been about that? Assuming I would set foot on your boat is a stretch, that I'm too stubborn to learn electronic an even bigger stretch. Relying soley on electronic for navigation and foregoing the paper charts completely is something I will never be comfortable doing no matter how many rediculously redundant systems we dream up
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Old 13-07-2012, 23:59   #234
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

The inherent vulnerabilities of electrical systems and/or electronics in the marine environment is reason enough to keep paper charts as well as keeping up on the skill.
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Old 14-07-2012, 00:55   #235
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
You can print just about anything. Do you really want charts printed with water-soluble ink on your boat?
I had some large scale harbour A4 paper printouts as a backup for cruising south america, not much chance of getting any charts in most places down there. They tend to degrade a little after a few years but should work fine as a backup. I never got the chance to find out for sure as the laptop worked 100%. Same as everyone else I met down there
If you are going cruising there are a whole host of things to worry about, having a bit of paper onboard just in case the LX nav fails is really easy.
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Old 14-07-2012, 01:18   #236
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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No not dreamed up. A near lightning strike can wipe out all data on a gps handheld or not. This has happened before.i have met real sailors that experienced this.. Gos can fail. Someone suggested that a hand held was fail safe well it's not that's bad information.
Real experience my gps failed at night near the termination of the C and D canal. I had paper in the cockpit I was singlehanded. I knew where I was. I wasn't happy but I immediately was able to determine a compass course and where I was on a chart that was not electronic. I came into cape Henlopen single handed and the gos was way off. There were advisories about unreliable gos data. I had paper charts and the tools to negotiate into a safe harbor after a several day solo passage.
I guess I'm trying to back up what I say with some real life experience. Not sure what point your trying to make. Some cheap paper back up is food. Knowing how to use bearings and some old simple tools is fun and good. Coming into a pitch black port and knowing your **** is right on that's priceless.
It is always interesting to hear real life tales from cruising boats, but what you are describing is a GPS failure. Electronic charts work ( almost) as well as paper charts if the GPS unit stops working.
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Old 14-07-2012, 23:15   #237
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
It is always interesting to hear real life tales from cruising boats, but what you are describing is a GPS failure. Electronic charts work ( almost) as well as paper charts if the GPS unit stops working.
Unless the GPS failure is due to a general electrical failure.
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Old 14-07-2012, 23:20   #238
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

If we cannot repair then we should not be there!!!

Concept of cruising is being self efficient!!!

However i still carry hard back up......
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Old 14-07-2012, 23:51   #239
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

I never understood the need for paper charts until my Atlantic crossing some months ago when the SA government would not allow me to leave Cape town without them.
On a daily basis we plotted our noon position on the paper chart just because we had little to do!
We ended up in a lightening storm which proceded to shut all electronic equipment down ... we could feel the static in the air and were totally surrounded by it. Quickly we placed back up systems in the microwave to protect it from being destroyed if we took a direct hit ...
I cannot tell you how it felt to loose all our systems ... luckily it was not for too long before they came back to life ...
That paper chart became the most precious thing I had and I cursed myself for not having placed our position on it more regularly together with notes of currents and winds.
It did not take long before I became lax about it again though ... although I will always have one with me on any crossing I do! I think the need for expensive detailed charts is no longer necessary, but in my opinion, one that you can place a regular position onto and will see you back to land is a must!
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Old 14-07-2012, 23:59   #240
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

I was taught "Every system on a boat will eventually fail and a cruising sailor should have the knowledge,tools and parts to be able to repair and/or jury rig something without help from the outside world."
In a culture that works very hard at making people think they have to have stuff done for them this is a mindset many find difficult to accept. I was brought up to be self sufficient
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