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Old 13-07-2012, 19:25   #211
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
.

The last thing I want to do in new waters is go below to use a paper chart. The last thing I want to do in the rain and wind in the cockpit is deal with paper!
Me too. That's why I would study the chart well before I entered unknown waters, ride out the storm until a better time to make landfall in a new place, or even drop anchor if I was that unsure. Last I heard alot more people are running into things that are poorly charted because they don't give them as much berth with a GPS. Electronics will never replace good seamanship, nor will it replace paper charts, which are not as accurate as our GPS system. Why not use the system the chart was made for. There would have to be a major recharting effort before I would foolishly believe that the rock/reef in the chart is marked with such accuracy.
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Old 13-07-2012, 19:45   #212
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Someone mentioned storing charts earlier before this faraday cage madness. If you have condensation problems you can buy plastic chart tubes which you could store your charts in that are sealed. You can find them at most nautical supply stores. Also having been on a boat that was struck by lightning you will not loose all of your electronics. We lost 1 of 2 VHF's and the radar that was in use. The computer used for navigation was plugged into a surge protector and was saved.
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Old 13-07-2012, 19:50   #213
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Zee Hag brings up a good point: paper charts reveal much more about the contour of the beach than raster charts. They also tend to reveal more topographic information that assists in spotting landmarks.

Some of you claim the depth information is more accurate on electronic charts--and that might be true depending in your location. But I ask you this: How many go barreling into a small cove in reliance on posted depths??? Nobody, I hope.

I have never trusted posted depths along the shoreline. Learn how to read the water, and inch in slowly, during daylight.

Some brilliant person implied navigation is pointless once you abandon ship. That's a self fulfilling prophesy.

Why bother learning to walk if we can ride electric wheelchairs into our specially equipped vans and drive everywhere? It's always a good idea to keep shoes handy and learn how to walk in them.
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Old 13-07-2012, 19:50   #214
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by elliebell View Post
Just out of curiosity...What if you run out of deisel and none is to be found? And your batteries are drained?
Boat electrics have progressed enormously over the last few years.
If my 1000L of diesel ran out, or my main engine and 12v generator both stopped working, I have still got the solar panels. The solar panels normally
supply all my electrical needs, so the loss of diesel would not interupt my normal electrical supply. If the solar panels and batteries were damaged it's unlikely that all 4 solar panels and 6 batteries would be inoperable at the same time.

If all these systems failed I still have many hours left of map viewing on the inbuilt batteries of the mapping devices. In this emergancy situation the maps would only be consulted periodically and on this inbuilt battery power alone I would be fine for most passages.

As a final redundancy my handheld GPS units have a crude base maps and as each set of batteries gives 20 hours use a large slab of alkaline AA batteries would last for many years.

These multiple layers of backups of backups would not normally be spelt out or considered but I think are important in this discussion.

Despite these multiple layers of redudancy if all maps were lost it would still be possible to make port without undue risk to life, or vessel, in most circumstances.

There are hazards sailing a yacht offshore. Collision, fire, even the loss of the rudder or mast pose serious risk. Many yachts have contingency plans to deal with these problems, but multiple backups of backups of these vital systems are not common.
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Old 13-07-2012, 20:02   #215
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Cool now we have handheld electronics that will reliably survive a lightening strike. Bag the faraday nonsense. Please provide some science how the electronics survive the EMP of a direct strike. Or better give me a manufacturer warranty.
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Old 13-07-2012, 20:03   #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterMariner
Someone mentioned storing charts earlier before this faraday cage madness. If you have condensation problems you can buy plastic chart tubes which you could store your charts in that are sealed. You can find them at most nautical supply stores. Also having been on a boat that was struck by lightning you will not loose all of your electronics. We lost 1 of 2 VHF's and the radar that was in use. The computer used for navigation was plugged into a surge protector and was saved.
Wow.

Not all strikes are created equal. Some stuff survives some strikes. Sometimes all chips are wiped out by near strikes. "You will not lose all your electronics" is like saying "it snowed once, and I slipped, but I didn't hit the ground and die of a brain injury." A classmate lived in Alaska his whole life, and often slipped in the snow. But when he hit his head at 48, he never uttered another word. You don't know.
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Old 13-07-2012, 20:07   #217
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by Jbaffoh View Post
Zee Hag brings up a good point: paper charts reveal much more about the contour of the beach than raster charts. They also tend to reveal more topographic information that assists in spotting landmarks.
.
Most electronic charts contain the same contour and topographic information as paper charts.
You cannot overlay a Google earth image on a paper chart.

I admit I use the latter for finding where the road is to the nearest town, or where there is shop with supplies, but in out of the way places a photo of the anchorage can be very valuable information.
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Old 13-07-2012, 20:11   #218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77
Most electronic charts contain the same contour and topographic information as paper charts.
You cannot overlay a Google earth image on a paper chart.

I admit I use the latter for finding where the road is to the nearest town, or where there is shop with supplies, but in out of the way places a photo of the anchorage can be very valuable information.
Ok, then let me be more specific: Navionics Gold+ charts show far cruder coastline contours and topographic information than NOAA charts for Alaska and California.
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Old 13-07-2012, 20:11   #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jbaffoh

Wow.

Not all strikes are created equal. Some stuff survives some strikes. Sometimes all chips are wiped out by near strikes. "You will not lose all your electronics" is like saying "it snowed once, and I slipped, but I didn't hit the ground and die of a brain injury." A classmate lived in Alaska his whole life, and often slipped in the snow. But when he hit his head at 48, he never uttered another word. You don't know.
To each is own...also most paper charts are rasters a lot of the e-charts are vector charts which display more info predominantly.
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Old 13-07-2012, 20:12   #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterMariner

To each is own...also most paper charts are rasters a lot of the e-charts are vector charts which display more info predominantly.
You're right--I meant to say vector charts. Sorry.
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Old 13-07-2012, 20:13   #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jbaffoh

You're right--I meant to say vector charts. Sorry.
No worries
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Old 13-07-2012, 20:15   #222
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by sabray View Post
Cool now we have handheld electronics that will reliably survive a lightening strike. Bag the faraday nonsense. Please provide some science how the electronics survive the EMP of a direct strike. Or better give me a manufacturer warranty.
The science behind a faraday cage is well proven.
On a practical level it works speaking with other cruisers that have suffered a lightning strike.
I believe my dual protection of backup electronics in a metal box, below in metal boat, provides a good level of protection.

See post 27 for my further thoughts on lightning and electronics.
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Old 13-07-2012, 20:18   #223
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by sabray View Post
You may be to sure of that. EMP can and does wipe out electronics that are not connected to a wired system. It may not happen if it's secured in a true faraday cage even then it could.

But you're missing the point here by dremaing up "The Sky is Falling" scenarios.

No one here uses only electronics except one person, the original poster.

It's a non-issue for the great majority here. Pardon the apparent sarcasm, but when people say things like "Electronics can fail," They're acting as if people who use electronics are ... stupid or something.

EVERYONE knows electronics can fail. For that matter, an unexpectedly large wave could wash over your cockpit and blow your chart overboard.

Stuff happens.
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Old 13-07-2012, 20:19   #224
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Originally Posted by Rakuflames

But you're missing the point here by dremaing up "The Sky is Falling" scenarios.

No one here uses only electronics except one person, the original poster.

It's a non-issue for the great majority here. Pardon the apparent sarcasm, but when people say things like "Electronics can fail," They're acting as if people who use electronics are ... stupid or something.

EVERYONE knows electronics can fail. For that matter, an unexpectedly large wave could wash over your cockpit and blow your chart overboard.

Stuff happens.
THANK YOU!
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Old 13-07-2012, 20:26   #225
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
Boat electrics have progressed enormously over the last few years.
If my 1000L of diesel ran out, or my main engine and 12v generator both stopped working, I have still got the solar panels. The solar panels normally
supply all my electrical needs, so the loss of diesel would not interupt my normal electrical supply. If the solar panels and batteries were damaged it's unlikely that all 4 solar panels and 6 batteries would be inoperable at the same time.

If all these systems failed I still have many hours left of map viewing on the inbuilt batteries of the mapping devices. In this emergancy situation the maps would only be consulted periodically and on this inbuilt battery power alone I would be fine for most passages.

As a final redundancy my handheld GPS units have a crude base maps and as each set of batteries gives 20 hours use a large slab of alkaline AA batteries would last for many years.

These multiple layers of backups of backups would not normally be spelt out or considered but I think are important in this discussion.

Despite these multiple layers of redudancy if all maps were lost it would still be possible to make port without undue risk to life, or vessel, in most circumstances.

There are hazards sailing a yacht offshore. Collision, fire, even the loss of the rudder or mast pose serious risk. Many yachts have contingency plans to deal with these problems, but multiple backups of backups of these vital systems are not common.
Ahh solar panels. didn't see that in the original post, so that answers that question.
That is quite a system of backup of backups you have going there. Call me silly, but wouldn't it be easier to just have 2 copies of paper charts and the knowledge to use them. I mean, at what point are you just with all the redundancy, not to mention the cost of it all, timewise/maintenance/dollar value. 1000 L tanks do run out of diesel too, and last I looked around, the world is growing, and we(america) aren't the only ones so interested in the stuff and there just isn't that much of it around anymore(like quality 316 and bronze now). Good luck finding 1000 L of diesel near enough to the water(probably not gonna jerryjug that, huh?) if you find yourself very far off the beaten path.

As far as comparing a mast or rudder to electrical charts... Not really comparable systems in my opinion. apples and oranges.
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