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Old 13-07-2012, 18:28   #196
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by atoll View Post
how would you teach someone how to measure distance with a pair of dividers on an electronic chart!

how would you teach someone how to use a compass rose and lay off a bearing on a electronic chart!

how would you teach someone to correct a bearing from magnetic to true on an electronic chart!

Dividers are a tool for paper charts. A chart plotter also gives a distance scale. It's not hard at all.

The issue of magnetic vs true is irrelevant when using an electronic chart *unless* you combine the electronic with a paper chart. That is what I advocate (and presumably you too, since you also have both), and VERY easy to learn when using both tools.
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Old 13-07-2012, 18:30   #197
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Well, technology and electrical electronic gizmos drive us to a world where the toilets are vacum flush, electric, roller furlers with electric engines, holding tanks with electronic gauges to measure the poo level, chartploters with Autopilot radar depth sounder NMA with ECDIS + LOLIcollision avoid feature, Sailmail, Pactor, Electric winches , hidraulic winches, Keels controled by computers , Diesel engines controled by chips, etc... is the future,,,, but real sailors still can save their butt in a Night Gale harbour aproach scenario with just a paper chart and visual references, i wonder how many of this electronics lovers can do the same
The romance of navigation is getting lost.......

So now we're back to it. Anyone who uses any kind of electric or electronic aid is lacking.

I'm astounded to find out that because I have a chart plotter, I have vacuum flush on my head and an automatic roller furler. You'd think I'd spotted those features in 20 months... Off to go search!!!
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Old 13-07-2012, 18:33   #198
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
The back up systems would still work. Some of the plotters are rated for a minute immersion at 1m, which is better than a paper chart.
Back up systems can be further waterproofed in Decor container or similar. It's hard to store charts in such containers because of the physical size. A leak in your chart locker can ruin a few charts before its noticed.

After TS Debby was done toying with us, I got my charts out in preparation for a trip on another boat.

Good thing I did. Condensation had formed between the rolled layers of the charts with no way to escape. I took them out and hung them up, bu tit could have ruined them.
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Old 13-07-2012, 18:35   #199
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by smj View Post
What if you lose all battery power on a long voyage? Paper charts and a sextant and the knowledge to use it would be the basics. chart plotters etc. are modern conveniences. Nice to have but Not to be relied upon.

Spoken truly like someone who does not use these aids.

That's why most of us have battery-powered backup gps's.

More than "nice to have." Believe me, I didn't spend that much money on something that wasn't going to be very useful.

Backups. Important. I always have spare halyards, too ...
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Old 13-07-2012, 18:39   #200
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
paper charts are well kept in tubes with ends that are water tight so they dont become moldy or moist while not in use.
there are also antiquated and lovely works in wood called chart racks that can be placed in dry areas of boat......land masses are better defined , i have found, on the paper charts than with the gps charts. makes a big difference in new to you areas cruised. where the gps shows vague and poorly defined electronic coastlines, , THERE ARE ACTUALLY COVES AND ROCKS marked in the paper charts.... go figger.....

I would really like to hear your recommendations on that. By now perhaps you've seen my post that after TS Debby my charts were wet from condensation. Immediately I thought that maybe I should take them out of the built-in storage and put them in something like PVC pipe (first thing that came to mind).

But it's so humid where I live. Can you suggest a better way to store them? I certainly have places where I could stow tubes (and even -- gasp -- LABEL them!) but I wouldn't want to just trap moisture in there. What has worked for you?
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Old 13-07-2012, 18:43   #201
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

"As the vessel is portrayed in the centre of the screen, it can lead to a false sense of security. "


Only if the equipment is used stupidly. If the chart plotter is used stupidly, no doubt the paper charts will be also. Ya can't fix stupid.
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Old 13-07-2012, 18:45   #202
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
Well...It looks like 50/50 paper vs plotter. I'll bet 5 years ago it was 80/20. For me, I have paper and not because I think they're better...I just don't know. Much like the other paper guys and gals here...we have little or no exposure to plotters. If I add items like a plotter and more support and back up equipment, I'll never leave. Ya just gotta go and use what ya have.
Zee...the reason the guy stole your charts is because you didn't have a plotter he could steal!...

I don't think we were reading the same posts. Clearly, except for one person, people advocating using both INTELLIGENTLY, and even the OP has finally acknowledged at least one use for paper charts.
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Old 13-07-2012, 18:50   #203
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
The quality of charts is important, they are only as good as the the accuracy of the information they provide.
It's hard to compare paper and electronic charts because few boats carry detailed and up to date copies of both.
My own impression is that both media are very similar. The electronic charts tend to be more up to date and for many charts you can download the latest version direct from the Internet. It is theoretically possible to correct paper charts, but I don't know any long distance sailors that do this. Paper charts can be commercially corrected and this is done by racing sailors mainly because it's a requirement of the race rules, but long distance sailors have too many paper charts and the cost (or time if you did it yourself) would be prohibitive.

As a general trend I have noticed electronic charts tend to show a more rocks and obstructions particuarly in anchorages. Most of the time they are correct, but it's not unusual for there to be no hazard where one is shown, but this is better than the alternative of not showning a hazard where one exists.

For both paper and electronics there is big difference between the quality of maps in popular and deserted areas.
Once you start crusing out of the way places depths are sometimes totally wrong and even features such as smaller islands are sometimes not shown.

One good thing about electronic charts is that it's easy to have several versions from different companies of the same area. Google earth and the community layer on maps can also be useful.

I am not as widely traveled as many here, but for local waters that has been my experience -- that by zooming in on the chartplotter, I find details that are not on the chart. There simply isn't room on the paper chart. Some may *claim* that what's on the chart plotter is the same as what is on the paper chart, but in fact it's very easy to add information to electronic charts, because it isn't a big, expensive printing job to update it.

We see this in car GPS's all the time. Owners are advised to periodically connect their GPS to their computers and update the GPS's information.

Some information is extremely accurate on my chart plotter. I could sail through the channel markers into my club in pea soup fog relying on the chart plotter because it is extremely accurate for those markers. The private markers into my marina? Not so much. In fact I would not enter my marina in pea soup fog. I would wait it out or go someplace else (such as to the club).
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Old 13-07-2012, 18:51   #204
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
It is a good idea. It certainly possible to print from most of the program's on PC or tablet.
Chartplotter maps are more difficult, but most of the chartplotter companies have PC programs that will read the map cartridges and presumably you could print from these.
If you were concerned about the security of your electronic backups you could print some relevant charts on the boat before the trip.

You can print just about anything. Do you really want charts printed with water-soluble ink on your boat?
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Old 13-07-2012, 18:53   #205
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Define stupid. I think your onto something here. The original poster may be offended though.
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Old 13-07-2012, 18:57   #206
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
It would be great to do a comparrison. My own impression is that electronic charts are prepared to include data from several sources, while "official" charts will only include the detail of the original sounding ( or soundings). Data from any non official source is not included untill it has been verified which may take many years.

For example the area I am sailing at the moment was subject to an unofficial survey by a retired navy cartographer. He published a series of maps and pilot guide. It's expensive with 5 volumes in booklet form, each volume costs about $130.
He did extensive soundings of many of the smaller anchorages that are of no use to large ships and therefore tend to poorly covered in the official charts.
I have noticed much of this data is included in electronic charts, but not official paper charts.
These differences between paper and electronic charts only show up most in areas that are out of the way and therefore poorly surveyed.

Electronic charts have not been around long so I am interested in other peoples Impression. Much of my sailing was done without electronic charts so their are many areas that I know well where I have only seen paper charts so no comparrision can be made.
I have only been able to make a comparrision over the last few years and this sailing has been mainly in Europe so other areas may be very different.

What is everyone's impression are electronic charts better, worse, or the same ( as paper charts) for small boat navigation.

I know

for a fact

that MY chart plotter, which is only a little Garmin 441S, contains

information NOT included on any of my paper charts --

IF I zoom in enough.

But if I zoom in enough, there could be a major obstruction 100 yards in front of me and I would not see it on the chartplotter because the screen isn't big enough. I don't need a $2500 chart plotter with a big screen precisely because I have paper charts.
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Old 13-07-2012, 19:05   #207
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by ebaugh View Post
I agree. We stopped buying them about 8 months ago. So far BVI to Grenada, no regrets. I do like to have the guidebooks though.

We have 3 devices with electronic charts, 2 Laptop PCs, and an IPad. Two versions of data, Navionics and C-Map. We have 4 ways to generate power, 2 gensets, 2 main engines. 2 different inverters for AC charging and one DC power supply that will work with either Laptop. I just can't imagine a situation short of abandoning ship where I'd lose charting capability. And then it doesn't really matter much anymore.
Just out of curiosity...What if you run out of deisel and none is to be found? And your batteries are drained?
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Old 13-07-2012, 19:05   #208
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by ArtM View Post
Do you think this is going on? People out there navigating channels from their GPS and not knowing how to read the markers or judge the positions of the shoals?

I'm not saying it's not, but I would be surprised if this is a common practice. "Close fix" gps is just not that close - 2-3 meters is a very tight fix for non-military GPS devices.

I think it happens every time we have a sail school where our students have 4 sessions on the water lasting 2 1/2 - 3 hours each, under very controlled circumstances -- and then go buy a sail boat.

Oh wait -- I resemble that remark.

But I STAYED in the very small area I was familiar with while I learned what I needed to know. CGA has a very good class on chart-reading. Once I took that, then I went out (without a GPS, by the way) and explored further waters using those navigational aids.

I went step by step. Took a bunch of classes along the way, sailed with other people, listened to what others had to say (some of them were idiotic enough that I started learning who did and did not know what they were talking about), etc.

I know people who started out knowing nothing about navigation. But I don't know any that have STAYED there. I overheard a guy on the radio once, but I don't know anyone who relies only on electronics.
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Old 13-07-2012, 19:10   #209
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by rtbates View Post
A lightning strike might prove otherwise!

A lightning strike will not take out my hand-held -- that's why the people here who use both charts and electronics talk about having a backup.
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Old 13-07-2012, 19:22   #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames

A lightning strike will not take out my hand-held -- that's why the people here who use both charts and electronics talk about having a backup.
You may be to sure of that. EMP can and does wipe out electronics that are not connected to a wired system. It may not happen if it's secured in a true faraday cage even then it could.
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