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Old 13-07-2012, 16:09   #181
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by MasterMariner View Post
Tell that to the USCG when you run aground and have a oil spill I don't think it would fly.
Vessels can be held responsible for the costs of salvage and pollution clean up etc, but there is (generally) not any difference in liability or prosecution based on the equipment they carried, providing the boat meets the legal requirments and satisfies the equipment necessary for their national flag.

I have not cruised American waters ( one of the few places I have not been), but hope to be there in a few years.
Can you tell me what requirments a British flagged boat needs to meet? Is there a requirment for a paper chart? Are there local saftey equipment requirments that apply to overseas yachts?
I am not trying to be difficult, but have no wish to break any laws.

Almost no American yacht crusing say France meets the local laws or safety equipment required of French yachts, but American yachts would feel (correctly in my view) unduly poorly treated if they were prosecuted when sailing through French waters if they failed to conform to these local safety requirments.
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Old 13-07-2012, 16:21   #182
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

I didn't say people have it, I said that there are legal ways to avoid paper charts. And having a ECDIS system installed does allow you to operate without carrying paper charts. But you are correct in that a off the shelf system is not likely to comply, but they are more like $25,000, not $100,000. Basic units start at around $15,000, so while quite expensive, not unreachable for high end yachts.

And since they include a number of other monitors in addition to just a chart plotter the price may not be so outrageous compared to a whole electronics suite.

And most nations do not require paper charts anymore. They require you to meet SOLAS requirements, which means paper+a normal chartplotter, or an ECDIS system with electronic backup.


Quote:
Originally Posted by foolishsailor View Post
I dont know of a single sailboat, possibly excluding super yachts, that sails with ECDIS systems.

We all use ECS systems. It is easy enough to find out the system you use - is there a warning when you turn it on that tells you not to rely on it as a primary source of navigation?

ECDIS systems usually range around $75k - 100k...

The expense involved in making them super redundent, reliable, consistently current, etc. is also what makes them expenesive and unattainable for normal cruisers.

It is also why most nations require paper charts and why if you ended up in a legal case over personal injuries or vessel damage and tried to in some way use your chart plotter as a defense, or it was found out that you had no "reliable" and "defensible" navigation method in place you would be in trouble...
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Old 13-07-2012, 16:29   #183
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

So basically what you are saying...

Fork out 25k or you still have to use paper charts?

Also it is more than 25k, as you need to keep the system up to spec each year...

But lets cut to brass tacks...do you know anyone on a sailboat who has an ECDIS system? I dont.

So in the real world, we need to have paper charts to meet the needs of most larger ocean faring countries?

But to stay in the real world, not many of us do meet the requirements as many nations either dont check or dont enforce with 2 notable exceptions of Australia and South Africa.

As 2 years resident of SA I can say that they only check locally owned boats however, which is why so many try to get fellow cruisers to let them use thier flag and name as the local qualifications are very serioous...

...quite rightly so in my opinion, as I let my boat get surveyed out of curiosity and concern as I rebuilt her ther over two years and wanted a second opinion...

...i passed
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Old 13-07-2012, 16:36   #184
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

I actually know a number of private boats that use an ECDIS system.

But yes you are correct, either shell out let's say 15-20,000 dollars or carry paper charts if you want to be legal in the US.

I can't speak for other flag requirements.

Although to be correct, it is not enough to have the charts, you must also updated the charts every week to comply wi the most recent notice to mariners for the area in which you are sailing. And at least in the US the requirement is that every chart onboard that covers the area you are in, have left, or are going to must be updated.

If you have never done this, it is a painful and laborious process that takes hours if you keep detailed local charts, as well as big picture ones.
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Old 13-07-2012, 16:51   #185
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
I actually know a number of private boats that use an ECDIS system.

But yes you are correct, either shell out let's say 15-20,000 dollars or carry paper charts if you want to be legal in the US.

I can't speak for other flag requirements.

Although to be correct, it is not enough to have the charts, you must also updated the charts every week to comply wi the most recent notice to mariners for the area in which you are sailing. And at least in the US the requirement is that every chart onboard that covers the area you are in, have left, or are going to must be updated.

If you have never done this, it is a painful and laborious process that takes hours if you keep detailed local charts, as well as big picture ones.


We are on the same page now. It is trully a pain in the ass. Most mariners, even responsible ones dont meet these requirement even if they updae thier charts for the areas they plan to sail from the notices to navigation. But it is still more realistic in terms of real world navigation requirements to meet the needs of licensing by having and updating paper charts.

I would love to see the boats you know with ECDIS?

Edit: This sounds sarcastic but i meant it sincerely as in they must be large, beautiful and ocean going to shell out the funds...

Also, imagine what you could buy with the, at least $15k you would save by using plotter/paper. you could spend it on paper charts and plotter if you tried...

edit: just realized you brought up another point I was thinking about in terms of compliance with ECDIS....you need high enough internet speed mid ocean to allow real time updates to the ECDIS software and charts to maintian compliance. I think this runs what, about $11k a year????
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Old 13-07-2012, 17:00   #186
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

The deeper I look, the less I am sure what the legal requirements actually are for a private non-commercial vessel. 33CFR179 would be the natural place to look, since that is the section that deals with recreational boats, but there is no requirement there for a private vessel to carry any charts at all.

I highly doubt that there is no legal requirement, but I haven't been able to find it yet.


The boats I know with a ECDIS are all very large (150' plus yachts), or one maxi-racer (70'). It helps that one of the manufacturers for such amazing boats (Trinity Marine) is local, and I have gotten to sail against the owner of the company since I was a kid.
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Old 13-07-2012, 17:32   #187
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
I highly doubt that there is no legal requirement, but I haven't been able to find it yet.
.
Generally world wide, no requirement would be the norm for pleasure craft.
There are a few countries that specify a chart must be carried, but generally they do not exclude an electronic chart.
Those that do exclude an electronic chart often do not specify what constitutes a valid paper chart, so a school atlas of the world may meet the legal requirments.
A very small number of countries specify a reasonable scale, valid marine chart that has been recently corrected, but this upsets people because very few boats conform to this requirment.

As a general principal if you conform to the saftey requirments of your countries flag you are valid worldwide, but it pays to do some research before entering a country.

It is much better to conform to law. The cost is very small. For most private boats the law allows them to carry whatever charts, electronic or paper the skipper deems necessary.

The important question is not what legal, but what it reasonable. Electronic technology is changing rapidly and we need to readdress these issues often.
I consider myself myself a safety conscience skipper, but recently feel that technology has reached the stage that paper charts are no longer essential. In many ways this will make little practical difference to me, as I still have a full set of paper charts available, nevertheless I consider it is an important subject that should be debated. Few are prepared to admit they would be happy without paper charts, but I see experienced cruising sailors everyday that never use paper charts.

I wonder if in 5, 10 or 20 years if this thread is posted again if people will feel the same way.
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Old 13-07-2012, 17:38   #188
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

So after a pretty exhaustive search of the federal rules, and digging into some paid legal research tools, I have concluded that to the best of my ability, there is NO legal requirement for a boat (as defined by the USCG) to have any charts onboard. So it's the skippers call what they want to bring.

Personally I rely almost exclusively on electronic charts, but I always have paper charts below just in case. And when teaching new people I always start with paper.
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Old 13-07-2012, 17:57   #189
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All seriousness aside if your tp supply gets soaked or burned up by lightening is your back up a iPad?
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Old 13-07-2012, 18:13   #190
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

"
Originally Posted by Rakuflames
And if you transfer your lat/long from the electronics to the paper chart, and then have to rely only on the paper chart, you now have a very accurate and very visual record of what has happened so far. Extra visual info on a visual tool. Invaluable sometimes.
I don't understand what the difference is. The only difference I can see is that the electronic chart gives you a continuous position line ( your track) that is constantly updated where as a paper chart gives you an inferior series of position marks that need to worked out manually.

In the unlikely event of the GPS system fails, electronic charts loose their advantage and the position marks become a series of manually plotted marks on both paper and electronic charts. The historical data remains with both systems. the track on the electronic chart is still visible.

If you are concerned about loosing the historical data on the electronic chart you can record the position in the ships log every hour or so as most people do anyway. "



Yes, smart people chart their progress. That's what I was saying in what you quoted.

However, I reject the notion that the entire GPS system, which has never collapsed, will suddenly collapse. If that happens I won't use electronics, of course.

But it's highly unlikely.

I think I've made an important point here that has been overlooked: combining GPS information with older types of information can be highly instructive. FIRST do your dead reckoning or whatever method is appropriate -- then use the GPS to confirm your actual latitude and Longitude. If there's a significant discrepancy ... it's time to figure out why. Maybe you under-or over-estimated the effect of windage on your freeboard. Maybe there's a current you weren't aware of. Etc.

If you do all this with the cooperation and assistance of your crew, everyone learns. If, as I have, you have sailed with a lot of relative newbies ... do you really want them on a night watch without their understanding the need for plotting your course traveled?

But a paper chart gives NOTHING inferior. A paper chart is the ONLY way to get the big picture and hold it in field while you zoom in on the chart plotter for more detailed information about your current location. Just for example, are you coming up on a manmade fishing reef? Where I am, they are often surrounded by fishing boats. At night I would avoid them.

In addition, that paper chart now places your entire course on that "big picture." IMO it is the only safe way to use a chart plotter.

But while we're talking about systems collapsing -- what if your paper chart blows overboard? I've just stopped mine from going a couple of times. Things happen.
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Old 13-07-2012, 18:15   #191
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by atoll View Post
without papercharts,dividers and a compass rose/plotter/parrelel ruler,it would be very difficult to teach even basic navigation skills to the total novice!

Of course.
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Old 13-07-2012, 18:16   #192
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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if paper charts are so unnecessary then splainme why it is mine were STOLEN from my boat in mazatlan BY A CRUISER......(yes i replaced em, but not until i got to la cruz de huanacaxtle.)
electronic charts are not all inclusive--many times i have had to refer to paper for the important stuff about the area--and, in some places in gom, electronic takes a nap. for 5 mins, then back on....lol....even hand helds do that. so much for electronic backup for electronic items. satellite coverage is just that--not battery operated error--is sat coverage not overlapping in paces to be found by YOU....was fun.
as for the electronic maps--as i had to use only my gs for map and chart coverage coming into banderas bay and la cruz, i noticed the shapes of land masses are not accurate with electronics--the shape is roughed in--coves do no longer exist, islands are not there--lol-- those without paper charts--HAVE FUN---dont end up in an island grounded, or ground to death. would be a bad read in papers or online.

I don't see five minutes of loss of signal as a big problem, esp. if one has been sensible and has charted their course.
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Old 13-07-2012, 18:21   #193
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by sabray View Post
All seriousness aside if your tp supply gets soaked or burned up by lightening is your back up a iPad?
To be safe without paper charts good electronic backups are essential. Not many boats meet the requirements that would satisfy me, but this is changing rapidly as technology progresses and people accumulate laptops, chartplotters and tablets that have maps installed.
In an emergency situation I think navigating with just an iPad (with suitable maps) and preferably with a handheld held GPS Would be satisfactory.
I know of several crusing sailors that navigate using these tools as a routine.
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Old 13-07-2012, 18:22   #194
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Not actually collapsed but I have experienced large discrepancy several times. In another event at night coming out into deleware bay system crashed. Knowing where I was and having paper near was most helpful. Think that's a pretty good argument for having cheap paper. There is a mind state that just enjoys playing with dividers and parallel rules identifying marks and sailing without a LCD screen posted at the helm.
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Old 13-07-2012, 18:25   #195
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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OK hyperbole aside, I am deeply concerned that the current generation of sailors are totally dependent on GPS for navigation. The argument stated earlier that with GPS down, our paper charts are just as worthless as the chart plotter is also disturbing because it implies the only way to get a fix is to use a GPS.
This has me upset because:
It implies that one cannot look at a chart and see the land features and match it to what one sees in the cockpit.
It implies that one cannot recongise common navigational aids in the ocean and fix a position by taking a compass reading from those aids.
That we would never know how close we are to danger without looking at some printed/digital material (which can fail).
I had a recent sail in which the captain of another boat was with me. He thought nothing of sailing over dangerous banks (because the depth was sufficient on the charts).
I agree with integration of all sources- but start out with common sense and DR and line of sight navigation first.

Sorry, but you can't set hyperbole aside when your whole post is based on hyperbole.

You said:

"I am deeply concerned that the current generation of sailors are totally dependent on GPS for navigation."

And yet, I know no one like that, and an active member of two different sailing clubs. You'd think that I would know *one* of those sailors.

ONE person has stated that paper charts are worthless. Is there ANYONE here who agrees with that statement? If so, I have missed that post. The essence of hyperbole is to take one isolated statement and then expand it to cover a large group of people, assuming that it applies to all of them.

But you go on past your first, hyperbolic sentence, to infer things that have not been said ("It implies that one cannot recongise common navigational aids in the ocean and fix a position by taking a compass reading from those aids.")

What proof do you have of that?

"I had a recent sail in which the captain of another boat was with me. He thought nothing of sailing over dangerous banks (because the depth was sufficient on the charts). "

Did he run aground?

I ask, because I know that there are places in the area I sail in most where it would appear, on the charts, that it would not be safe to go, but in reality, people do all the time. In fact, I just bought a new chart for water I already have on three charts, becauee *this* chart showed depths in more detail (particularly in one specific place) than those other charts. It showed me -- reliably -- the "short cut" other experienced sailors are using to get past a certain key here without running aground. Now I can take that short cut (and I know numbers of people who use it) myself -- safely.

So it might be the chart that was inadequate.

In case you haven't noticed by this, it *does* mean that I do not rely solely on my chart plotter. It no doubt (I haven't gone to it yet) shows that path, but I also need to see it within the larger picture -- the shape of the key as well as the keys around it, etc.

I'll use that new chart, and put waypoints in, because precision in my location will make a big difference there, and the chartplotter can help with that. To some extent, estimating where you are *accurately* without electronics is a matter of "time over water," so of course people's skills will vary.

But this?

"I am deeply concerned that the current generation of sailors are totally dependent on GPS for navigation."

A completely unjustified condemnation of an entire group of people based on no facts yet presented.
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