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ArmyDaveNY · 13-07-2012, 10:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdvick

Three years on a Russian Icebreaker - Antarctica in the southern summer, High Arctic in the northern summer, had both paper and plastic. Always had a paper location and course plotted.

That makes sense. When I was in the Army and GPS was in every tank, I still had a map on the roof next to me and was keeping my position posted just in case. Thanks for the info.

**noelex 77** · 13-07-2012, 10:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArmyDaveNY

That makes sense. When I was in the Army and GPS was in every tank, I still had a map on the roof next to me and was keeping my position posted just in case. Thanks for the info.

A GPS is not much use unless you have got a map

Amapola · 13-07-2012, 11:57

Although I have 2 Garmin chartplotters and a handheld GPS, we still use the paper charts as backup. I especially like the Bahamas Explorer charts because they have a lot of local info included with the charts.

ArtM · 13-07-2012, 12:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lagoon4us

Australia require you to carry paper charts regardless of electronics installed...

Do aircraft still carry a hard copy of mini charts? Im not sure.......

The last time I flew, small aircraft were required to carry paper charts. However, I believe that iPad's are now approved, even in commercial airplanes. Look in the cockpit next time you board, odds are the copilot is plotting a course on an iPad.

P.S. The last time I flew was 10 years ago.

conachair · 13-07-2012, 12:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by carstenb

Just in case y'all didn't know - ya gotta have paper charts or you're not gonna be legal

Just in case you didn't know, that statement depends on what flag you have hanging off the back of your boat.

MasterMariner · 13-07-2012, 13:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by conachair

Just in case you didn't know, that statement depends on what flag you have hanging off the back of your boat.

Actually what country you are in and their regulations.

Lagoon4us · 13-07-2012, 13:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArtM

The last time I flew, small aircraft were required to carry paper charts. However, I believe that iPad's are now approved, even in commercial airplanes. Look in the cockpit next time you board, odds are the copilot is plotting a course on an iPad.

P.S. The last time I flew was 10 years ago.

LOL too many security doors these days to get a look in, trying to protect their charts methinks!!!

conachair · 13-07-2012, 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterMariner

Actually what country you are in and their regulations.

You are absolutely right & I am wrong.

Law of the Sea and the Coastal State | Boating Abroad | Information & Advice | RYA

Though personally, "Thems not so much rules, more what ye might like to call guidelines"

So has any any sailing boat ever anywhere been done for not having paper charts onboard?

**noelex 77** · 13-07-2012, 13:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterMariner

Actually what country you are in and their regulations.

Yes and no
There is general agreement that if a vessel complies with legal requirments of the the flag they are flying they are permitted to navigate all waters.
This makes sense. A vessel navigating international waters, as many crusing yachts do, could never comply with all the local laws.

It does cause some problems. For example French yachtsmen get upset that they have to comply with many, very strict, requirments, such as mandatory surveys Liferaft inspections etc, but visiting British yachts have no such requirments despite sailing the same waters.
These sort of problems can cause some difficulties with local authorities. Countries sometimes try and impose their local laws on visiting yachts. Generally, but not always, these attempts are unsuccessful due to international agreements.

The result is that could probably sail in Denmarks water without a paper chart and still be legal, even if this is a strict requirment for a local boat, but I have not visited the country or looked at their regulations, so this is general advice only.

I would encourage anyone to comply with the legal requirments, even if they do not make practical sense.

In terms of a chart if there is a requirment to carry a paper chart generally one that covers a large area without any detail should meet the legal requirments.

MasterMariner · 13-07-2012, 14:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Yes and no
There is general agreement that if a vessel complies with legal requirments of the the flag they are flying they are permitted to navigate all waters.

Tell that to the USCG when you run aground and have a oil spill I don't think it would fly.

Stumble · 13-07-2012, 14:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterMariner

Tell that to the USCG when you run aground and have a oil spill I don't think it would fly.

42192 *Federal Register / Vol. 69, No. 134 / Wednesday, July 14, 2004 / Notices*

“Carriage of Navigation Equipment for Ships on International Voyages”

“If a ship has an approved ECDIS installed according to chapter V, the ECDIS will be considered by the Coast Guard as meeting its nautical chart regulation in 33 CFR 164.33(a)(1), because the ECDIS meets the same navigational safety concerns as do paper nautical charts. This policy benefits the ship owner and operator by relieving them of the need to unnecessarily duplicate equipment.”

In short, if you have an approved ECDIS installed onboard you are not require to have paper charts, and haven't been since 2004.

MasterMariner · 13-07-2012, 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stumble

42192 *Federal Register / Vol. 69, No. 134 / Wednesday, July 14, 2004 / Notices*

“Carriage of Navigation Equipment for Ships on International Voyages”

“If a ship has an approved ECDIS installed according to chapter V, the ECDIS will be considered by the Coast Guard as meeting its nautical chart regulation in 33 CFR 164.33(a)(1), because the ECDIS meets the same navigational safety concerns as do paper nautical charts. This policy benefits the ship owner and operator by relieving them of the need to unnecessarily duplicate equipment.”

In short, if you have an approved ECDIS installed onboard you are not require to have paper charts, and haven't been since 2004.

For US vessels what about foreign flag?

Stumble · 13-07-2012, 14:59

If you're operating in compliance with your foreign flag requirements then to the best of my knowledge you are fine. That doesn't mean you can avoid liability, just that you are in compliance with federal requirements.

That being said, the USCG requirements are based on and compliant with SOLAS so most ships should comply.

MasterMariner · 13-07-2012, 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stumble

If you're operating in compliance with your foreign flag requirements then to the best of my knowledge you are fine. That doesn't mean you can avoid liabili, just that you are in compliance with federal requirements.

That being said, the USCG requirements are based on and complient with SOLAS so most ships should comply.

Good to know thanks for digging that info up.

**foolishsailor** · 13-07-2012, 15:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stumble

42192 *Federal Register / Vol. 69, No. 134 / Wednesday, July 14, 2004 / Notices*

“Carriage of Navigation Equipment for Ships on International Voyages”

“If a ship has an approved ECDIS installed according to chapter V, the ECDIS will be considered by the Coast Guard as meeting its nautical chart regulation in 33 CFR 164.33(a)(1), because the ECDIS meets the same navigational safety concerns as do paper nautical charts. This policy benefits the ship owner and operator by relieving them of the need to unnecessarily duplicate equipment.”

In short, if you have an approved ECDIS installed onboard you are not require to have paper charts, and haven't been since 2004.

I dont know of a single sailboat, possibly excluding super yachts, that sails with ECDIS systems.

We all use ECS systems. It is easy enough to find out the system you use - is there a warning when you turn it on that tells you not to rely on it as a primary source of navigation?

ECDIS systems usually range around $75k - 100k...

The expense involved in making them super redundent, reliable, consistently current, etc. is also what makes them expenesive and unattainable for normal cruisers.

It is also why most nations require paper charts and why if you ended up in a legal case over personal injuries or vessel damage and tried to in some way use your chart plotter as a defense, or it was found out that you had no "reliable" and "defensible" navigation method in place you would be in trouble...