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Old 04-06-2015, 15:44   #61
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Re: Open sea, what do you use for Navigation?

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Originally Posted by belle-isle View Post
Dockhead and Muckle Flugga are absolutely right, land-based stations and satellites have nothing to do with the nominal standard AIS. It's a ship-to-ship protocol which does not rely on anything else than the transponder on one ship and the receiver on the other....

A personal example : while crossing the Pacific Ocean from Chile to Easter Island, we spotted only one vessel during 19 days. ...........
Not strictly correct.. major reason for AIS introduction was for use by VTS aka 'port control' so they can know who is where and doing what to whom. It made their lives a whole lot simpler. I've been out of the game for over 9 years but radar was still the primary anticollision device between ships...check that with Nigel... I'm sure its still the same.

Similar situation Chile to Tuamotus once clear of the coastal traffic.... saw two fishing boats.... one Spanish with Chilean watchkeeper north of Easter Island... the other a few weeks later had no AIS.... all we saw has a big loom of light on the northern horizon one night.
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Old 04-06-2015, 15:55   #62
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Re: Open sea, what do you use for Navigation?

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Not strictly correct.. major reason for AIS introduction was for use by VTS aka 'port control' so they can know who is where and doing what to whom. It made their lives a whole lot simpler. I've been out of the game for over 9 years but radar was still the primary anticollision device between ships...check that with Nigel... I'm sure its still the same.

Similar situation Chile to Tuamotus once clear of the coastal traffic.... saw two fishing boats.... one Spanish with Chilean watchkeeper north of Easter Island... the other a few weeks later had no AIS.... all we saw has a big loom of light on the northern horizon one night.
Sorry for the digression, but "The original purpose of AIS was solely collision avoidance..." (from Automatic Identification System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

True, the page goes on "... but many other applications have since developed and continue to be developed", including VTS third in the list of applications. It might have been A major reason, but most probably not THE major reason. And it there was ONE major reason, it was collision avoidance... Why, then, would "The 2002 IMO SOLAS Agreement include[d] a mandate that required most vessels over 300GT on international voyages to fit a Class A type AIS transceiver". If VTS had been the major purpose, IMO would have initially required AIS to be on only within harbour limits, in TSS, and perhaps in national waters, but not offshore.
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Old 04-06-2015, 16:08   #63
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Re: Open sea, what do you use for Navigation?

Note I said '(a) major reason'.... not 'the major reason' , at the time it was introduced it was also being introduced for VTS..... when we first had one fitted the major port we were operating to already had it up and running.
Use by vts wasn't just an afterthought after its introduction.
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Old 04-06-2015, 16:12   #64
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Re: Open sea, what do you use for Navigation?

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Note I said '(a) major reason'.... at the time it was introduced it was also being introduced for VTS..... when we first had one fitted the major port we were operating to already had it up and running.
Use by vts wasn't just an afterthought after its introduction.
Or Homeland Security

AIS has been well hijacked for these uses, but the original and main purpose is bridge to bridge.

The world has moved on in 9 years, and now many slack commercial bridges no longer effectively notice targets not broadcasting AIS. Another good reason to be sure you're transmitting, and have a well-installed set with good antenna etc.
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Old 04-06-2015, 16:14   #65
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Re: Open sea, what do you use for Navigation?

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Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
Note I said '(a) major reason'.... not 'the major reason' , at the time it was introduced it was also being introduced for VTS..... when we first had one fitted the major port we were operating to already had it up and running.
Use by vts wasn't just an afterthought after its introduction.
No worries

Just making sure people don't think this was a VTS device whose use was then extended to offshore navigation. It might create confusion as to whether land-based stations are needed for it to work. As I explained, no, it does not. But that does not stop land-based stations from monitoring the signal, whether for VTS use, for plotting on marinetraffic.com et al. or for whatever other reason.
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Old 04-06-2015, 16:50   #66
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Re: Open sea, what do you use for Navigation?

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Or Homeland Security

AIS has been well hijacked for these uses, but the original and main purpose is bridge to bridge.

The world has moved on in 9 years, and now many slack commercial bridges no longer effectively notice targets not broadcasting AIS. Another good reason to be sure you're transmitting, and have a well-installed set with good antenna etc.
I don't think 'hijacking' would be quite the word I would use. They simply identified the use while developing the system and started using it for VTS as soon as it was introduced.

Funny little story.... about 45 years ago I had seen an air traffic control setup at the London Science Museum... aircraft identified by whatever means and flight number displayed next to echo on radar. Said to lecturer at college a fews later 'why can't we do that on ships' radars?'... 'Totally impossibe, will never happen etc etc etc' was his response while implying that I had never seen it and had been imagining things.

While many ships have integrated ECDIS where all this info is under the nose of the navigator many many ships both old and new do not and the AIS display is 'out the back' somewhere. Just because I'm retired doesn't mean that I don't know what is going on out there....
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Old 04-06-2015, 17:20   #67
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Re: Open sea, what do you use for Navigation?

I'm reading with great interest and appreciate all the wisdom in this thread. I'm new to offshore and plan a round trip to Hawaii from LA this summer. Either short-hand or solo if the girlfriend can't make it.
At any rate I just purchased a B&G 4G radar with MFD to be installed very soon and thought I should also get the B&G VHF with built-in AIS receiver since it can be connected to the zeus 2 MFD.

After reading some scary experiences here, I'm thinking maybe a VHF that also transmit AIS is in order. Any suggestions?
Also, is there a way to set up a remote speaker in my bunk that will wake me up when the guard zones are being approached? I think I'm too far from the helm to hear an alarm there.
Also, what is a wafi and dafi ?

Thanks.
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Old 04-06-2015, 17:58   #68
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Re: Open sea, what do you use for Navigation?

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Also, is there a way to set up a remote speaker in my bunk that will wake me up when the guard zones are being approached? I think I'm too far from the helm to hear an alarm there.
Also, what is a wafi and dafi ?

Thanks.
Buy one of these and stump up $27 for the external alarm.. WatchMate Vision AIS Transponder | Vesper Marine

A wafi is a wind asisted idiot... haven't heard dafi before

Moving along... primary reason for AIS is to stop ships running into each other, primary reason for VTS is to stop ships running into each other...

Meanwhile.... 3 a is of interest.

Does anyone know if the amendments brought in in March of this year are just USCG amenments or are IMO.?
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Old 04-06-2015, 18:07   #69
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Re: Open sea, what do you use for Navigation?

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primary reason for AIS is to stop ships running into each other, primary reason for VTS is to stop ships running into each other...
That's exactly what I was saying to myself !
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Old 04-06-2015, 22:27   #70
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Re: Open sea, what do you use for Navigation?

Thank you El Pinguino.
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Old 04-06-2015, 22:45   #71
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Re: Open sea, what do you use for Navigation?

Just realised I hadn't posted the link that included item 3(a) https://mcanet.mcga.gov.uk/public/c4...es/annex17.htm
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Old 04-06-2015, 23:06   #72
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Re: Open sea, what do you use for Navigation?

Thanks again! Looks like a fine piece of equipment. One problem thou, everybody's not using them and propably ever will..
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Old 05-06-2015, 00:16   #73
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Re: Open sea, what do you use for Navigation?

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Originally Posted by s/v Beth View Post
OK, you have left the coastal waters for a 2000 mile journey. You are out of the shipping lanes. What equiptment do you keep on?
Depth finder? Don't need it
Chartplotter? you just going to see how deep the ocean is?
Radar? AIS? Probably at night or when you are napping. Otherwise?
VHF? waste of electrons unless you are close enough to talk to someone...
How about an delorme inreach? At least you would have fixes every few hours...
So what do you leave on?
Autopilot?
Inquiring minds want to know!
Depth sounder...come on with everything else in the N2K net.
Chartplotter - well, it's the radar screen too. Provides other information, e.g. VMG, ETA, etc. that keeps you from wanting to jump overboard.
Radar - at night, even though the chances on slim of hitting someone out there...I'd rather not.
AIS reception - always
VHF - Always. There is NO guarantee there isn't someone within 20 miles that is trying to reach you. We've take a VHF Mayday in the middle of nowhere.
Autopilot - well I ain't hand steering if I don't have to!
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Old 05-06-2015, 01:57   #74
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Re: Open sea, what do you use for Navigation?

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Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
Buy one of these and stump up $27 for the external alarm.. WatchMate Vision AIS Transponder | Vesper Marine

A wafi is a wind asisted idiot... haven't heard dafi before

Moving along... primary reason for AIS is to stop ships running into each other, primary reason for VTS is to stop ships running into each other...
...
Vesper provides good value and a very nice interface. However, they are not without issues in some fairly rare cirucmstances. Operating a boat with both a Vesper Watchmate Vision transponder system and an older integrated "black box" passive AIS receiver last year in the Singapore Straits, I found that the Vesper marine completely jammed out at a little over 200 targets, and wouldn't respond at all. It seems to lack adequate memory or processing capacity for really large numbers of vessels at once. Meanwhile, the 9 year old black box system continued to deliver accurate and complete information via seatalk bus to the plotter.

This resulted in a fairly protracted correspondence with Vesper marine on the subject. They were interested and wanted to resolve the issue, but basically at the end of the correspondence it was not resolved and has not been to my knowledge (it may have been but I would think would require hardare changes), though they are certainly now aware. This was quite concerning for such an area as the SS, as really a well functioning set there and in other very busy areas such as the likes of Dover Straits, Gibraltar etc. is absolutely invaluable.

As to WAFI's, you missed a word

As to VTS and Bridge to Bridge AIS, of course it is both. One area of remarkable usefulness of the VTS aspect is the receiver and repeater station in the Canary islands, which provides information on ships at great distance, far far over the horizon as I recall seemingly to the low hundreds of miles. I can only assume they have some kind of antenna array on Teide or some other high up arragnement, or are using relayed bridge to bridge data. Anyhow, interesting and useful quite far offshore.
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Old 05-06-2015, 03:59   #75
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Open sea, what do you use for Navigation?

Yes Muckle, we picked up ships at 1000M on AIS from Faro in the south of Portugal, to below Cape verdes.
On another AIS note. I've just found out marine traffic accepts AIS input data via email, satelite or iPad apps. This is interesting because it leads the way for also receiving by those methods and being seen by vessels subscribing to satelite AIS services. So mid ocean we can report our position, which will show on marine traffics web page map, but obviously (at this stage) not on nearby vessels plotters. But hopefully soon this data will be two way and repeated similarly to the repeater stations around Atlantic morocco. Not that data outside the usual 20M for ships range is really necessary at sea, but the sooner a target is seen, the better.
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/.../t-131761.html
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