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Old 05-09-2017, 13:44   #61
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Re: Not another one?

"... a minor, unlucky, but tragic oversight..."
neither minor, nor unlucky nor "oversight"! he didn't look.
we all make/made plenty of mistakes - this was not a "mistake", it was a wrong attitude!
no sympathy for people who drive insurance premiums up & give the bureaucrats excuses to introduce restrictive legislation! (& yes, there are a few oceancrossings in my background...some in retrospect looking full of big risks taken without sufficient knowledge like halfway rtw with my lady pregnant)
(the 200.000 miles I find hard to believe too, 3 rtws amounted to probably not much over 100.000)
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Old 05-09-2017, 13:48   #62
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Re: Not another one?

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Originally Posted by SailingFan View Post
In this case, he "had no idea" the reef existed. How is that possible if he actually looked at a paper chart of the area?

:
Good question, well asked.

Out of interest. was this guy navigating with one of those charty plottery thingies that displays the WARNING on fireing up.... "NOT TO BE USED FOR NAVIGATION " ??

Just ask'n.
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Old 05-09-2017, 13:55   #63
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Re: Not another one?

Would be interested to know if the boat that was anchored inside the reef (which did the 'rescue') had an anchor light on. I am guessing they did, because it was a research sort of vessel. If so, that is one more watch keeping clue that was available to a problem developing. But if the cat deck saloon windows were dark tinted, an anchor light (and by the way, often other vessel nav lights) is more difficult to see from inside.

I do have both empathy and sympathy for these guys, while still agreeing/recognizing this was a pretty basic fault of someone who seemingly had not done a lot of (tropical) ocean navigating. They do (apparently) have insurance unlike the other cat (in polynesia). So it is 'easier' on them, but does have a direct knock-on effect on other (insured) cruisers costs.

One other comment - this was about a 585nm leg, which we found to be exactly the wrong/worst length. Short enough that you really never get your sea legs or a truly relaxed sleep, but long enough that you get really fatigued. We always preferred 2 days (or less) or more than 5 days. Their cognitive functioning at the time of the incident, at the likely cumulative fatigue level, could have been about that of a serious drunk driving level.
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Old 05-09-2017, 14:24   #64
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Re: Not another one?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Sure, no argument from me, it's definitely better, but being practical -- who among cruisers covering long distances is able to keep up-to-date paper on board for everywhere they go? I found it overwhelming. I have paper charts stuffed under every mattress on my boat, and it was still not enough, and there is just no way for one man to keep it all up to date, and do anything else on board.
Having spent some time as second mate on tramping tankers I know exactly what is involved in keeping a world wide folio of admiralty charts corrected and up to date. I also know that the number of corrections required on charts of 'distant waters' is not great miniscule ( if you exclude Japan/Singapore/Persian Gulf and similar ) when compared with the number of NoM's for European waters.

And also .. Ocean passage planning is quite a different animal than organising a trip in home trade or near continental waters. It may come as quite a surprise to you that it is much simpler f'rinstance windfarms don't suddenly appear where last season there was open water.

Another point... the Admiralty do not issue a chart of the South Pacific ... they issue 'A Planning Chart for the South Pacific Ocean' as they do for all the other oceans of the world. That chart plus two or maybe three others will see you safely across the South Pacific... unless you are eastbound in which case you need only one.

Throw in a few landfall charts and you are good to go ... hardly an onerous NoM correction task.

Safe clearing distances on passage? A hundred miles or more for vigias... 5 or more hours sailing for unlit but reasonably well charted isolated dangers.
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Old 05-09-2017, 15:40   #65
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Re: Not another one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
Would be interested to know if the boat that was anchored inside the reef (which did the 'rescue') had an anchor light on. I am guessing they did, because it was a research sort of vessel. If so, that is one more watch keeping clue that was available to a problem developing. But if the cat deck saloon windows were dark tinted, an anchor light (and by the way, often other vessel nav lights) is more difficult to see from inside.

I do have both empathy and sympathy for these guys, while still agreeing/recognizing this was a pretty basic fault of someone who seemingly had not done a lot of (tropical) ocean navigating. They do (apparently) have insurance unlike the other cat (in polynesia). So it is 'easier' on them, but does have a direct knock-on effect on other (insured) cruisers costs.

One other comment - this was about a 585nm leg, which we found to be exactly the wrong/worst length. Short enough that you really never get your sea legs or a truly relaxed sleep, but long enough that you get really fatigued. We always preferred 2 days (or less) or more than 5 days. Their cognitive functioning at the time of the incident, at the likely cumulative fatigue level, could have been about that of a serious drunk driving level.
Good points! As usual.
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Old 05-09-2017, 16:05   #66
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Re: Not another one?

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
...
On the first point - He was heading to Niue, I am presuming from rarotonga, and he unfortunately let 26nm of cross track error build up. If he had stayed on the GC route he would have missed the reef by that much. You get off your planned track, you do need to double check it is ok, even in the middle of the open ocean.
...
Well, we don't know where they started from, nor whether he planned a GC route or whether he just placed a waypoint next to Niue, nor whether their autopilot was heading to that waypoint. I should think if they were using their autopilot to track to a waypoint then they would have seen the XTE.

But remember, he had no idea the reef was there. So nothing specific to look out for and nothing to worry about even if 26 miles XTE.

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...
On the second point, I am wondering (after these two recent pacific incidents) whether the really wonderful cat deck saloon (which I generally love) may tend to make some sailors more isolated from their environment, less aware and less sensitive? On Hawk we intentionally went with a hard dodger rather than a pilot house for that reason (and lol because many pilot houses make me seasick at night).
...
Yup, it's very easy to stay inside the salon, either flaked out on a bench or sitting in the nav table chair. We set a 10 minute timer to ensure at least occasional looks outside. But I'm sure that some of my crew pop out, take a look around (not light adjusted) and go back inside. If there's a container in front of us we're hooped.

We set radar guard and AIS alarms (the latter primarily for mob notification), plus all the other instruments, but it's not proper watch keeping. For sub tropical South Pacific while on an ocean passage far from land not too big a deal I think. Am I stupid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
...
As to this specific incident, again related to point #2 - skipper 'should have' seen land on chart (e-chart or paper), 'should have' seen breakers on radar (although probably did not have radar on like many cruisers on passage), 'should have' felt change in motion (but that probably required more experience with this boat than he had), 'should have' see white water (or some color/turbulence, which is usually visible even on real dark nights) but probably/perhaps not possible from inside the deck saloon.
...
You have way more ocean experience than I do, but I'm not sure that a reef is visible at night if there's any reasonable sea and wind about - how does it look different from the usual swell top breakers?

I guess the quality of watch keeping depends very much on the perceived risk. It's hard to maintain a strict watch keeping regime on a family boat in the middle of a big, mostly empty, ocean. Other than to make the watch-keeping station as exposed and uncomfortable as possible, what are other options?
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Old 05-09-2017, 16:05   #67
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Re: Not another one?

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. . . And also .. Ocean passage planning is quite a different animal than organising a trip in home trade or near continental waters. It may come as quite a surprise to you that it is much simpler f'rinstance windfarms don't suddenly appear where last season there was open water.. . .
If you say so. I haven't done it; you have. But what you say sounds plausible to me.

My trips through the North Sea and Baltic are fiendishly complicated to plan. I guess it requires a hundred large scale charts, and hundreds of waypoints. I live in dread of screwing it up and going onto one of the millions (this, finally, is not hyperbole) of rocks of the Baltic, many of them uncharted.

I did finally have a great insight into getting across the North Sea, which occurred to me only on my 8th crossing -- use the TSS's, stupid. Instead of dodging oil platforms, uncharted wind farms, and fishing vessels the entire way. Doh. Don't know why this didn't occur to me until now . We had a lovely passage this time, and got passed by the Queen Mary II herself during one night -- what a sight.
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Old 05-09-2017, 16:16   #68
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Re: Not another one?

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Other than to make the watch-keeping station as exposed and uncomfortable as possible, what are other options?
In principle it is straightforward. be fully awake/alert (at least) every 15 minutes and full look and listen 360 degrees outside the boat (from outside, not inside the dodger/saloon/pilothouse), and look at the chart & radar & ais & depth sounder (make sure all are consistent with chart and each other).

In practice, people find that takes a lot of discipline, more than many people have. Especially after you have not seen anything at all but white caps for a couple days. Then you have to decide, on the attention vs fatigue triage, what your judgement call is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fxykty View Post
Well, we don't know where they started from,

yea, I am making an educated guess,
but it is really the only likely place given the reef they hit


nor whether he planned a GC route or whether he just placed a waypoint next to Niue

Default for most plotters/gps is a GC route.
Most people dont even know there are different types of 'streight line' routes. So, again sure, an educated guess,
but very likely.


nor whether their autopilot was heading to that waypoint. I should think if they were using their autopilot to track to a waypoint then they would have seen the XTE.

On ocean passages, autopilot steering to waypoint is less common than coastal. More common is compass or wind, especially on the pacific downwindish routes. If it had been steering (all the way) to way point then there would have been no xte.

But remember, he had no idea the reef was there. So nothing specific to look out for and nothing to worry about even if 26 miles XTE.

But the reef was right there on his plotter. As I said above he should have been looking at the plotter every 15 minutes, and if he had slid off his route he should have been especially careful to look and zoom. You are arguing he had an unknown unknown (which seems correct for him), and I am arguing that such reefs are a known unknown and should be looked for. Just like uncharted rocks are a known unknown when you get off the main route in Chile.

Yup, it's very easy to stay inside the salon, either flaked out on a bench or sitting in the nav table chair. We set a 10 minute timer to ensure at least occasional looks outside. But I'm sure that some of my crew pop out, take a look around (not light adjusted) and go back inside. If there's a container in front of us we're hooped.

We set radar guard and AIS alarms (the latter primarily for mob notification), plus all the other instruments, but it's not proper watch keeping. For sub tropical South Pacific while on an ocean passage far from land not too big a deal I think. Am I stupid?

I'l duck that question - you are master, only you can make that risk assessment.

You have way more ocean experience than I do, but I'm not sure that a reef is visible at night if there's any reasonable sea and wind about - how does it look different from the usual swell top breakers?

Usually definitely visible on radar from say 3nm, perhaps further with a good radar. By eye, usually more flashes of white than open ocean, and bigger on the horizon. But you need to be alert and experienced to catch those two things.

I guess the quality of watch keeping depends very much on the perceived risk. It's hard to maintain a strict watch keeping regime on a family boat in the middle of a big, mostly empty, ocean.

Their kids look big enough to keep a watch during the day. That would help a lot.

But I agree, as I said above, many people find the discipline of watch keeping very hard. It's not something we are trained in unless relatively elite military (or similar) service.
........
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Old 05-09-2017, 16:19   #69
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Re: Not another one?

Back to the electronic chart issue for a moment;

Recently received an e-mail from Aussie cruising friends, currently cruising in Maine waters. They had struck a rock reef while actively monitoring their Navionics "Sonar" e-chart. The reef was completely missing at all zoom levels, and the bottom contours showed a depth of 13 meters at the impact point. The standard Navionic chart did show the reef... a case where the allegedly greater detail of the premium chart was defective. They have found two other reefs missing from the Sonar charts in the area. They posted screen shots of the two charts, but I was unable to copy them here. I don't know if they have notified Navionics.

I have some misgivings about all the non-official charting services. I realize that many use these services and like them,but cases like this seem to crop up all too often.

Thoughts?

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Old 05-09-2017, 16:32   #70
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Re: Not another one?

What is this word "wreak"? Do you mean wreck.
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Old 05-09-2017, 16:54   #71
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Re: Not another one?

'But the reef was right there on his plotter. As I said above he should have been looking at the plotter every 15 minutes,'

In the Daily Wail article he says plotter was on 100 mile scale and did not show the reef until, after impact, he went down to 12 mile scale.
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Old 05-09-2017, 17:16   #72
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Re: Not another one?

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In the Daily Wail article he says plotter was on 100 mile scale and did not show the reef until, after impact, he went down to 12 mile scale.
Yea I know. However, I take a "trust but verify" approach to such comments . . . . . #1 I have looked at navionics, c-map and isailor charts and all show the reef thru the zoom scales. So, I would be curious what sort of charts he had that did not show the reef at 100 mile scale. #2 We all know this sort of zoom problem can happen (although I am skeptical in this particular case), so it was at least my practice to do a very quick zoom down on the watch keeping plotter scan - takes no time at all - kept us off some rocks in Argentina and iceland.

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Thoughts?
Yea, they contacted me. I asked them to please not reference me in their blog about it - I already have a 'hard guy' reputation and dont need any extra help getting sued.

Given what we now know about Navionics, I would suggest people stick as close as they can to the main base file cartography.

I personally am fine working with Navionics charts. But would suggest you do need to exercise a bit more caution than with an official chart, and it is helpful to have a second chart source to double check occasionally and when things just dont feel right.

I personally don't know enough about the various 'unofficial/commercial' e-chart options to know which one is 'best'. As I pointed out in another thread, the isailor charts had a zoom problem in the one place I looked closely. . . . if you can afford the ARCS (uk hydrographic office) that seems to be likely the best general source, but there are some places where other countries (like the french) do better coverage.
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Old 05-09-2017, 17:41   #73
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Re: Not another one?

I just know I wasn't allowed to leave NZ without paper charts covering the tasman, our clearance path offshore and our destination and its possible alternatives. Plus two back-up battery run portable GPS units. My crew took this very seriously.
At the time I thought it was a bit over the top :-)
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Old 05-09-2017, 18:50   #74
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Re: Not another one?

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We discussed it in this thread:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...em-140632.html


There but for the grace of God go I. Using vector charts for passage planning requires great care, and awareness of this issue.

Indeed. British sailing gave us Jack Giles and Lloyds coffee shop.

I run two GPS with two chart datums over time I came to understand the benefits.

LOCAL: One is always zoomed in local view (for me a Garmin dedicated plotter).

BIG PICTURE: iPad Navionics for leg planning, distance estimates, etc.

ICW both are usually dialed in closer for tie-breaking.
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Old 06-09-2017, 01:20   #75
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Re: Not another one?

"cognitive functioning" - love your terminology es!
"Most people dont even know there are different types of 'streight line' routes." - sad but 100% true!
re spotting the breaker at night: I'd guess if one is not actively looking for the reef (he didn't "know" it was there) it would be very unlikely they'd spot it in time. Even from up in the spreader, -going up under blusterous tradewindconditions with fully developed waves & at night, only the watchkeeper awake, would be somewhat risky in itself - I'm not sure I'd spot the breakers in time to go from downwind-mode into closehauled mode. I know that during daytime in a dead calm the breakers on Haapai's eastern reefs could be heard & (barely) seen from the spreaders at 11nm
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