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Old 05-09-2017, 04:03   #46
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Re: Not another one?

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Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
Ah... the red herring... which has nothing to do with the current discussion..
Not a red herring at all -- the purpose of passage planning is to MANAGE RISKS. They are exactly risks -- not certain events. We all use luck -- the whole trick is to reduce our reliance on it. This guy's luck ran out, and that doesn't prove that he was so much worse a skipper than the rest of us. Even if we are pretty sure that we would have planned that passage differently and managed THAT PARTICULAR risk better.

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Avoiding reefs in the SoPac? Prudent Passage Planners Prefer Paper.
Sure, no argument from me, it's definitely better, but being practical -- who among cruisers covering long distances is able to keep up-to-date paper on board for everywhere they go? I found it overwhelming. I have paper charts stuffed under every mattress on my boat, and it was still not enough, and there is just no way for one man to keep it all up to date, and do anything else on board.
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Old 05-09-2017, 04:03   #47
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Re: Not another one?

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Originally Posted by SailingFan View Post

However, he did not, he assumed that a single examination of an electronic device was sufficient, and that somehow paper charts no longer were valuable to his operation, and staked his reputation on his performance. He failed miserably, and stated such in more "glowing" terms, and should be ashamed that he did this on someone else's dime. If lives were lost, he is directly responsible.

That said, you are also correct that we could, any of us, fall on this particular sword, and I stated that I in fact had, and more than once. However, and this is a key point, I was doing it on my own vessel, in a situation where lives were less at stake and damage to vessels including my own was far less likely or substantial.
I don't get paid by someone else to know how to do these things, and I don't have a license that supposedly qualifies me to be able and understanding of these issues. He did. I vote it is revoked or at least suspended pending review of the incident, and if he is found negligent, he should be paying someone something for the losses he created. Then he should have to retest to get the license back (because he obviously did not get it the first time around) because he is currently a hazard on the high seas, to be frank.

I would expect no other treatment for myself had I held a captains license in my own incidents and had they been the same gravity as this was. It is only fair to treat the goose as the gander, after all.

Still, if someone wants to defend this guy, and wants to say it is just an accident and is acceptable, I would opt to not sail with (or nearby) that person either because it shows how little discretion in their own actions they apply when they are sailing. I would be putting my life at risk intentionally unless I volunteer to navigate their vessel. Of course, not being a licensed and tested navigator, I would also be direlect in my duties if I accepted a wage for doing that, so it certainly must be voluntary work...

???

I missed the bit in the press coverage where the skipper was being paid to sail someone else's boat. All the stories I read suggested he bought the boat in the Virgin Islands and was in the early stages of a RTW with his family.

Did you jump to a different incident? If so, please can you provide a link?
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Old 05-09-2017, 04:17   #48
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Re: Not another one?

^^ SailingFan seems confused. The Avanti, the cat which hit beverridge reef, which this thread is about, was a private yacht with a family of 4 on board. The father was 'captain' and not operating under any commercial circumstances.

As two asides:
From what I can see of their history he does not have anything like 200,000 miles (it is more like 6,000) on a pleasure yacht with his family. He did have other prior experience, including on a tall ship; but deckhand on a tall ship is a real different situation and not completely transferable (and honestly I am guessing there is not 200,000 miles there either). In the 2000's he was doing boat repairs (ashore) in Palma. I am guessing he did not have a master's license because usually the media makes a big point of that if he did.

I have looked at the major e-charting systems and they all (somewhat surprisingly) show Beveridge reef very well at passage planning scale. And the location on most of them seems to have been corrected and is pretty accurate ( the reef interior/pass detail is non-existent, but that is not relevant to this case). So, I am not entirely convinced by the zoom argument applying in this case - would be interested to know what system he was actually using.
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Old 05-09-2017, 04:38   #49
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Re: Not another one?

dockhead, I don't think that "keeping every paperchart onboard up-to-date" was necessary to be able to see Beveridge Reef...
I find:
"...first announced in the Nautical Magazine 1888, p.442..."
& I am sure if I peruse my NP62, Pac. Isld. Pilot Vol 3 I will find it mentioned...
& if he really had 200.000 miles experience he should have known that the ocean very often metes out punishment totally out of proportion to the sin comitted...
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Old 05-09-2017, 05:41   #50
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Re: Not another one?

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dockhead, I don't think that "keeping every paperchart onboard up-to-date" was necessary to be able to see Beveridge Reef...
I find:
"...first announced in the Nautical Magazine 1888, p.442..."
& I am sure if I peruse my NP62, Pac. Isld. Pilot Vol 3 I will find it mentioned...
& if he really had 200.000 miles experience he should have known that the ocean very often metes out punishment totally out of proportion to the sin comitted...
Naturally not, and I didn't say that it was.

Keeping charts up to date as required on a commercial vessel is necessary, just like checking through your route zoomed in is necessary, to avoid avoidable disasters.

The point is that not any one of us, does everything possible, to avoid avoidable disasters, and that we all rely a lot on luck.

If you ran into something which you could have avoided had you only followed this basic and obvious procedure, then we would be having the same conversation, only about YOU, and not about this guy.

We would not be talking about this guy had his course been different by 0.01 degree and he passed a few cables off to either side of this reef. His luck ran out. The Pacific is a bloody big empty ocean, and it's not obvious to everyone to check every mile of a thousands of miles long passage, just like it's not obvious to everyone that you really do need to read your bloody Notices to Mariners. I bet you don't -- am I right? If you don't, then this is just as bad as what that guy did. The odds of hitting that reef were remote -- he was very unlucky.


I DO keep at least one and sometimes two sets of up to date charts on board. I spend hundreds of pounds a year keeping cartography updated. I DO read the Notices to Mariners.

I DO check my routes meticulously. I DO cross-check what the plotter tells me, with radar, and eyeballs, and depth sounder.

But what else do I NOT do? I am always looking for that something, and trying to learn from mistakes of others, because I am absolutely sure that there is always something I'm not doing, which I should be.
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Old 05-09-2017, 06:17   #51
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Re: Not another one?

"we all rely a lot on luck"
to me "relying" implies premeditation, in this case not having/looking at an oceanic chart on purpose.
strangely enough: pinned on my wall in 78 or 79, when the completion of my boat & my first mile on saltwater was still 2 or 3 years away were BA charts 4061, 4052 & others...fuelling the dream.
I sure know that "...but for fortune..."...
there seem to me to be different degrees of circumspection
not having an oceanic paperchart seems to be carelessness of a very high order...
"...I am absolutely sure that there is always something I'm not doing, which I should be...." - & that is a big difference to "not giving a ...", which not looking if there are reefs on my route is
but what do I know...
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Old 05-09-2017, 06:33   #52
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Re: Not another one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by double u View Post
"we all rely a lot on luck"
to me "relying" implies premeditation, in this case not having/looking at an oceanic chart on purpose.
strangely enough: pinned on my wall in 78 or 79, when the completion of my boat & my first mile on saltwater was still 2 or 3 years away were BA charts 4061, 4052 & others...fuelling the dream.
I sure know that "...but for fortune..."...
there seem to me to be different degrees of circumspection
not having an oceanic paperchart seems to be carelessness of a very high order...
"...I am absolutely sure that there is always something I'm not doing, which I should be...." - & that is a big difference to "not giving a ...", which not looking if there are reefs on my route is
but what do I know...
He screwed up big time -- I think we can all agree about that. I also looked at my CM93 charts and can confirm what others have posted -- that the reef is visible even at pretty low zoom levels.

But "carelessness of a very high order" could describe many things, which all of us do, but we're not in the news only because we were luckier than this guy.

The point is not to let this luck -- even if it lasts for 30 or 40 years -- go to our heads. To keep looking for those things which we need to be doing better.
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Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
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Old 05-09-2017, 06:43   #53
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Re: Not another one?

"...not to let this luck -- even if it lasts for 30 or 40 years -- go to our heads..."
100% agree!
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Old 05-09-2017, 09:06   #54
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Re: Not another one?

On the luck thing . . . . as I mentioned in another thread . . . .
- one part of seamanship is to know what specifically to invest time and effort in paying close attention to and what you can (should not, but can) afford to be a bit lazy about. On a shorthanded boat we simply cannot pay 100% attention to everything - so attention/focus triage is a core skill.
- a second part is to be generally aware and alert enough to catch stuff that 'is not right, before it really bites you'. This involves being really in tune with the vessel (sounds and smells and feel) and have the right sensors and alarms on (but not too many).
- and the third part, is when bad luck bites you (and it will if you sail long enough), to have the tools and skills and courage and self-reliance to fight yourself out of the hole and clear (being able to sail with a broken rudder, broken mast/boom, being able to kedge off of coral and rocks, being able to sail in and out of harbors with a dead engine, etc etc Note: we have at some point had to, and been able to, do most of that).

On the first point - He was heading to Niue, I am presuming from rarotonga, and he unfortunately let 26nm of cross track error build up. If he had stayed on the GC route he would have missed the reef by that much. You get off your planned track, you do need to double check it is ok, even in the middle of the open ocean.

On the second point, I am wondering (after these two recent pacific incidents) whether the really wonderful cat deck saloon (which I generally love) may tend to make some sailors more isolated from their environment, less aware and less sensitive? On Hawk we intentionally went with a hard dodger rather than a pilot house for that reason (and lol because many pilot houses make me seasick at night).

As to this specific incident, again related to point #2 - skipper 'should have' seen land on chart (e-chart or paper), 'should have' seen breakers on radar (although probably did not have radar on like many cruisers on passage), 'should have' felt change in motion (but that probably required more experience with this boat than he had), 'should have' see white water (or some color/turbulence, which is usually visible even on real dark nights) but probably/perhaps not possible from inside the deck saloon.

Probably no point 3 option in this case - looks like the bottom was ripped off on contact. In 'conventional' construction, steel might have have given you an option 3 in this particular case (or 'serious extra scantlings' aluminum or composite).
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Old 05-09-2017, 11:12   #55
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Re: Not another one?

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^^ SailingFan seems confused. The Avanti, the cat which hit beverridge reef, which this thread is about, was a private yacht with a family of 4 on board. The father was 'captain' and not operating under any commercial circumstances.

As two asides:
From what I can see of their history he does not have anything like 200,000 miles (it is more like 6,000) on a pleasure yacht with his family. He did have other prior experience, including on a tall ship; but deckhand on a tall ship is a real different situation and not completely transferable (and honestly I am guessing there is not 200,000 miles there either). In the 2000's he was doing boat repairs (ashore) in Palma. I am guessing he did not have a master's license because usually the media makes a big point of that if he did.
I was confused, mainly because of the citation that this guy had 200K miles under his belt. One generally does that as a commercial operator, not a casual cruiser. I also drifted somewhat because of the safety violation that not examining at least a paper chart, even if it is an old one, contributed to this wreck. The reef was there on old charts, and had he kept up with his own position and that of the reef, it would not have been difficult to remain off it if his vessel is operating according to spec. In this case, he "had no idea" the reef existed. How is that possible if he actually looked at a paper chart of the area?

Part of pretrip planning is examining these things, as we all know. He did not apparently do that very well. Part of that planning is deciding ahead of time what will be done should a likely emergency happen. Just "winging it" is simply begging for trouble, especially if a craft is new to you. That is what I was attempting to say.

If anyone learned anything from that in combination with the penalties this guy would pay as the experienced captain he was made out to be, then my point is worth the controversy it created. I apologize to anyone who thinks I am an extemist. I just dislike seeing people and equipment damaged or destroyed because of a preventable safety violation that should have been quite obvious before the fact. Call it a idiosyncracy? And yes, I do believe that one day such things can happen to me. However, I do all in my power to try to investigate the things that can kill me or my family BEFORE going out on that limb. My two cents...
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Old 05-09-2017, 11:20   #56
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Re: Not another one?

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. . . The reef was there on old charts, and had he kept up with his own position and that of the reef, it would not have been difficult to remain off it if his vessel is operating according to spec. In this case, he "had no idea" the reef existed. How is that possible if he actually looked at a paper chart of the area?. . .
Last time you crossed an ocean, did you check the chart for the whole ocean? Did you catch Evans' remark about his XTE? It may be that there wasn't even anything wrong with his planning -- just that he got off his track and failed to re-do his check for obstacles. That's not a hard mistake to make.

Pay attention to what Evans said about the "attention/focus triage". If you don't have experience of long ocean passages, you might not immediately understand what this is about, but it's a key factor in understand the process, and understanding why there are many things which in hindsight look like "obvious before the fact" which are not in fact so obvious, without applying a lot of skill and diligence.
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We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
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Old 05-09-2017, 11:41   #57
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Re: Not another one?

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Last time you crossed an ocean, did you check the chart for the whole ocean? Did you catch Evans' remark about his XTE? It may be that there wasn't even anything wrong with his planning -- just that he got off his track and failed to re-do his check for obstacles. That's not a hard mistake to make.

Pay attention to what Evans said about the "attention/focus triage". If you don't have experience of long ocean passages, you might not immediately understand what this is about, but it's a key factor in understand the process, and understanding why there are many things which in hindsight look like "obvious before the fact" which are not in fact so obvious, without applying a lot of skill and diligence.
True, it is not a hard mistake to make if you don't know where you are and especially if you are not watching for issues especially in foul weather or at night (hence the requirement to maintain a standing watch by maritime law, which is why that law is there in the first place).

Secondly, it is easy to apply the skill to know there is a reef on a well published chart. If you have no conclusive evidence of your location relative to a land mass, then you must consider at least the possibility that you are in potential danger, and should probably consider what to do before proceeding blindly, should you not? You don't have to know the entire ocean, but you do need to know where you are and what is near your path. This, if nothing else, shows us the requirement to know where we are at a given time, especially when near obstacles that can sink us.

I am not in that situation right at this moment, but I do understand that it can happen when single handing and short handing a cruise vessel, and it is a challenge that is frequent among those who take the less serious path to ensuring they are on top of things, or perhaps I should say the more relaxed path. Yet that path still comes with repercussions, and this is one of them. Another is collisions at sea with other vessels, impacts with large oceanic wildlife, and any number of other things that can be minimized to varied amounts based upon any number of other factors. Yet a bit of land generally does not move like the other risks do, and therefore if you are unaware of your location, you cannot claim innocence when you make this kind of mistake, and frankly, deserve what you get.

To make a comparison to land navigation, if a sighted person were to walk into a building wall, they cannot say "Oh, I did not see that massive building there, I did not know where I was, so it is not my fault!" The person walked into a building, a nonmovable object, and they were not paying attention. If the person does that with anyone else in tow, they are also responsible for the others who follow if those others have no means of escape from that threat.

I have no sympathy therefore for this guy.
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Old 05-09-2017, 13:07   #58
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Re: Not another one?

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I have no sympathy therefore for this guy.
Maybe after you have an ocean crossing or two, or twenty under your command behind you, you might find it in your heart to have a bit of sympathy for a family that just lost their boat and home due to what may well turn out have been a minor, unlucky, but tragic oversight.

You've written dozens of paragraphs about this crews diligence, the use of paper charts, route planning, etc, etc, etc... based mostly, or entirely, on a non-sailing journalist's interpretation and filtering of a sat phone interview from the other side of the world of a man who had just lost his boat and very nearly his family.

I wish I could be more charitable, but your condescending posts are typical of so many "Internet Sailors" on this site and truly make me sick.

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Old 05-09-2017, 13:28   #59
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Re: Not another one?

Let's see where it goes. I am apparently just not so broken up when someone makes poor choices and someone else wants to be nice in reflecting on those choices because a loss was suffered. Again, remember I am speaking about it as this guy having all that time at sea, and if that is not correct, this changes a little. However, that said, if this is all he had, and his family was on board, the risk was far greater and his caution should have been far greater as well. So it sortof cancels out, and he is still the fool. Sorry if it offends, but I would expect the same treatment will come my way if I were to do this, as I already said. I am no professional captain either. I also don't have 200,000 miles at sea as captain or navigator. If I did, I would be even more critical I think.

To each his or her own, though, these are just opinions, and not worth getting riled over. We are just discussing this and I was offering some comparison for consideration based upon what was posted as accurate information.
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Old 05-09-2017, 13:30   #60
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Re: Not another one?

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True, it is not a hard mistake to make if you don't know where you are and especially if you are not watching for issues especially in foul weather or at night (hence the requirement to maintain a standing watch by maritime law, which is why that law is there in the first place).

Secondly, it is easy to apply the skill to know there is a reef on a well published chart. If you have no conclusive evidence of your location relative to a land mass, then you must consider at least the possibility that you are in potential danger, and should probably consider what to do before proceeding blindly, should you not? You don't have to know the entire ocean, but you do need to know where you are and what is near your path. This, if nothing else, shows us the requirement to know where we are at a given time, especially when near obstacles that can sink us.

I am not in that situation right at this moment, but I do understand that it can happen when single handing and short handing a cruise vessel, and it is a challenge that is frequent among those who take the less serious path to ensuring they are on top of things, or perhaps I should say the more relaxed path. . . . I have no sympathy therefore for this guy.
You either did not read, or did not understand, what Evans wrote about the "triage of focus and attention". I have the distinct impression that these opinions are formulated theoretically and without the benefit of any actual experience in a similar position -- trying to manage a vessel across a long ocean crossing.

We all agree that the guy screwed up. What we don't agree on, is how easy it is to screw up this sort of thing, even if you are fairly competent and fairly careful. You will never learn anything from this, if you can't put yourself in his shoes -- if you can't imagine how it could happen to you. That's a failure of imagination which in my opinion is actually worse, than what this guy did.
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Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
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