Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 23-09-2016, 11:17   #46
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 715
Re: Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

Quote: "As for chronometers that never lose time, ahem. I'm reading an account of the first days of Vancouver's arrival in Puget Sound."

Add to your reading Dava Sobel's excellent little book on the forty year quest of John Harrison to perfect a timepiece that would indeed remain accurate over many, many months as men like Capt. Vancouver explored the world

Capt.s Cook and Bligh both used Harrison Chronometers, the "most perfect" of which were produced in the 1770s. Capt. Vancouver's Nootka Expedition, of which you speak, took place in the early 1790s, and his possession of a Harrison Chronometer was intended to be experimental. The Admiralty knew full well that the technical challenges of constructing a "pocket watch" that would keep accurate time over many, many months were formidable, and that "most perfect" did not mean "absolutely perfect".

Vancouver's observations of the inaccuracy of HIS ( Admiralty issue) chronometer were incorporated into the tables of "chronometer rates" the Admiralty kept as a means of compiling empirical data to be applied in the further perfection of the chronometers that were in use until recent times.

TrentePieds
__________________

__________________
TrentePieds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-09-2016, 11:21   #47
Senior Cruiser
 
roverhi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Kona, Hawaii
Boat: 1969 Pearson 35 #108
Posts: 5,526
Send a message via Yahoo to roverhi
Re: Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

Josh Slocum navigated by lunar shots from tables that have not been in the Nautical Almanac for nearly a century. Very tricky getting accurate enough sites and some holes where it doesn't work. You can do the Lunar based navigation without tables but it used to take an experienced mathematician about 6 hours to do the math for each sextant shot.

Without accurate time, we can go back to the old latitude sailing that Columbus used to find India. Just sail to the known latitude of a destination and sail along the latitude till you hit your destination.

Most electronic time pieces involve micro circuitry that would be zapped by an electrical anomaly like a solar flare or EMP incident. Only the good old wind up time pieces would be immune and only ones that are god awful expensive and probably NLA would be accurate enough for open ocean voyaging. Keep your spare Casio in the oven and be sure and remove it before you bake some bread that you've made from some self milled glutton free grain.

If you have an interest in the history of navigation, read 'Longitude'. It's a fascinating account of the man who invented the first Chronometer and the Royal Astronomers effort to screw him out of his reward. https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/lon...37174290?mt=11
__________________

__________________
Peter O.
'Ae'a Pearson 35
roverhi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-09-2016, 11:25   #48
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Probably and anchorage or a boatyard..
Boat: Ebbtide 33' steel cutter
Posts: 2,837
Re: Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post

Young people are no longer interested in educating themselves. The civilization has changed. Consume, consume ...

b.
Almost a quarter of a million were interested in getting educated in boating matters last year alone..

That doesn't include the multitudes of self help sailing clubs around with the old boys passing on skills to the younger ones. (loads in the UK anyway)

You see only the black and white world you want to see......ain't all Doom and gloom..


http://www.rya.org.uk/about-us/media...tatistics.aspx

Training

The RYA offers more than 100 different theory and practical training courses
Approximately 220,000 RYA certificates were issued in 2015
The most popular course in 2015 was RYA Powerboat Level 2, with approximately 26,000 people taking the course
There are more than 2,400 recognised RYA Training Centres worldwide, with more than 500 of these outside the UK across almost 50 different countries.

As at 31/12/2015 638,346 youngsters had taken part in an OB beginner sailing session for young people
Signed up 248 sailing or windsurfing clubs/centres (as at 31/12/2015)
68,884 youngsters now sail/windsurf on a regular basis (as at 31/12/2015)
__________________
conachair is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 23-09-2016, 11:27   #49
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 7
Re: Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

I recently toured the New Navy Stealth Sub and mine detector ship in San Diego.
It has State of Art the Everything. At the helm next to sonar loop is the Paper Chart Table manned by the plotter.
SKipper says his plotter is more accurate than GPS and in fact checks his GPS via paper charts.

Get the point?

Captd
__________________
Captdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-09-2016, 11:33   #50
Senior Cruiser
 
seasick's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Bend, OR
Boat: Brewer designed Pacific 43 in fiberglass. Center cockpit set up for long-distance single handing.
Posts: 380
Re: Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

I taught celestial and coastwise for years. Now at age 62, I make myself relearn it every time I go offshore. My memory just can't seem to hold onto all the steps. Where site reductions use to take up the better part of my day and I usually ate a cold dinner, now I hardly know what to do with myself.

Where my mood and stress level were in direct relation to the quality of the day's sites, now the thrill is gone as is the anxiety.

To answer your question, you absolutely should know old school nav techniques but the chance that you'll ever really be dependent on them, is pretty darn minuscule.
__________________
seasick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-09-2016, 11:50   #51
Senior Cruiser
 
roverhi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Kona, Hawaii
Boat: 1969 Pearson 35 #108
Posts: 5,526
Send a message via Yahoo to roverhi
Re: Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

Quote:
Originally Posted by exMaggieDrum View Post
I learned celestial navigation once and then promptly lost most memory of the intricate details. I had a sextant and tables. Even a how to do it book to refresh my memory. I suppose I could at least relearn the theory.

The practice is something else entirely, whether you have a chronometer or not. It is something that takes a great deal of practice over long periods of time in my experience. I actually feel somewhat optimistic that I could find land in some direction if I had to. The big issue is whether I would have enough food or water to get there to still be alive.
Actually navigation via sextant and time piece is really quite simple. It is just a matter of taking the shot and putting the value in the right place, massaging it with information from the nautical almanac, HO 249 tables and your time piece. Math required is basically addition and subtraction. Calculations are made quite easy with a proper worksheet so you can put the information you need in the right order. As far as taking the sight with a sextant, found it pretty easy to shoot the sun. Took my first sight with my brand new sextant one day out of San Diego on the way to the Marquesas. Since you are reading this, it's obvious I figured it out.

Having done long ocean passages before and after GPS, kind of miss the good old days. Taking the morning, noon, and afternoon sun shots, calculating the LOP or fix and plotting the results on the chart broke up the long boring days of a passage. Felt like you were actually responsible for something other than just following the magenta line on the plotter. Unfortunately have forgotten the steps needed to calculate a fix, the nautical almanac is out of date and the now old sextant needs its mirrors resilvered but one of these days I'll actually relearn the basics. Unfortunately, I'm basically lazy and the GPS is so damned accurate that that day may never come.
__________________
Peter O.
'Ae'a Pearson 35
roverhi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-09-2016, 12:24   #52
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 72
Re: Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

A $99 eTrex will not be harmed by any lightning strike that does not kill you. That and a bunch of paper charts will get you anywhere in the world.
__________________
rhubstuff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-09-2016, 12:29   #53
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: PA, sail Chesapeake
Boat: Lots of boats.
Posts: 225
Re: Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

Agree with having some paper charts aboard, but even if I was well out, I'm still coastal cruising. So if lightning hit (and I was still floating) or a solar flare fried the satellites, forget the charts and sextant. I would just sail due west. Going to hit land in less than a few days. Then I do what SailorChic said. I stop someone and ask for directions.

And long before I put my Casios in an oven, I would probably put my cell phone, laptop and hand held GPS in the oven during the next big thunderstorm.
__________________
hsi88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-09-2016, 12:31   #54
Registered User
 
Adelie's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: El Ciudad del Mission San Diego de Alcalá en Alta California, Virreinato de Nueva España
Boat: Cal 20
Posts: 2,447
Re: Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhubstuff View Post
A $99 eTrex will not be harmed by any lightning strike that does not kill you. That and a bunch of paper charts will get you anywhere in the world.

Where did you get that opinion about the eTrex?


A house is but a boat so poorly built and so firmly run aground you would never try to refloat it.
__________________
A house is but a boat so poorly built and so firmly run aground no one would think to try and refloat it.
SailboatData
Adelie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-09-2016, 12:44   #55
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: May 2012
Location: New Orleans
Boat: We have a problem... A serious addiction issue.
Posts: 3,229
Re: Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
What have you done to protect the watches?
Don't get me wrong, I agree with your anticipated course of action but the watches getting fried is something to consider too.

My preparations are 2 pronged. I'm going to get a waterproof metal ammo case and store backup Casio watches in there. As a backup to the Casios I bought a 1960's Soviet made knockoff of a Rolex pocket watch for $35. I haven't checked it's rate but that's on the todo list.

Our local Costcos have the ammo boxes currently.


A house is but a boat so poorly built and so firmly run aground you would never try to refloat it.
So your solution to all the GPS' on board getting fried is to place a watch in a faraday cage? Why not just put a spare GPS in there with the watch?

Even if you assume that all the GPS sattelites could go down at the same time making a fix impossible, it would still tell you the time.
__________________
Greg

- If animals weren't meant to be eaten then they wouldn't be made of food.
Stumble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-09-2016, 12:47   #56
Registered User
 
Delancey's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Gone Cruising
Boat: 40' sailboat
Posts: 2,987
Re: Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
Of course they do. What happens when you're 500 mi offshore and your vessel is struck by lightning? All back up GPS are dead.
While I have yet to test the theory, in theory keeping you back-ups protected with these should prevent this from happening.

Specifically the conductive antistatic bags. Get ones with a zip lock closure. I have ones big enough to fit a laptop in that I got from eBay pretty cheap.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antistatic_bag
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	image.jpg
Views:	40
Size:	438.8 KB
ID:	131628  
__________________
Delancey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-09-2016, 13:55   #57
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 38
Re: Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

The only watch that I've heard of that is not afected buy a emp is Rolex milgauss. The movement is incased completely in some type of metal then dial and hands are installed. Then put inside case. Escape wheel and hair spring different material also. Also regardless how acurate a watch or clock might be. They need to be serviced every three years.
__________________
Mango51 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-09-2016, 13:56   #58
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 22
Re: Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

This is a subject that bothered the U.S. Navy for years. 18 years ago the stopped teaching sextant navigation. Nothing like having warships that don't know where they are! If it makes sense to them, then it makes sense to me. I deliver boats and I use everything available to insure that I know where I am. The owners and their insurance companies also like the idea.
__________________
Captain Bob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-09-2016, 14:03   #59
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: New Zealand
Boat: Custom sailing catamaran
Posts: 76
Re: Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaymondR View Post
Apparently Joshua made it around with an old clock without a minute hand and a school atlas.
And lunar tables. No longer available.
__________________
KJThomas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-09-2016, 14:10   #60
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 430
Re: Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

Redundancy is key - but being able to take a simple noon sighting is sufficient. If GPS is unavailable, I'll have my watch and cheap sextant. If my watch is dead from a lightning strike - I'm likely dead too.
__________________

__________________
We are sailors, constantly moving forward while looking back. We travel alone, together and as one - to satisfy our curiosity, and ward off our fear of what should happen if we don't.
SV DestinyAscen is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Europe's inland waterways - how to navigate Orchidius Navigation 8 30-12-2014 02:21
Need some perspective to navigate this cat purchase from Moorings in St Maarten Zindar Multihull Sailboats 12 12-03-2014 07:33
Really? Does Nobody Here Know What The Damned Thing is Supposed To Do? charliehows Propellers & Drive Systems 3 29-11-2012 20:10
Nobody Said it Was Going to Be Easy . . . Declemy OpenCPN 7 29-12-2010 12:52
I Live in Kansas and Nobody Knows Anything About Sailing. Buying Advice? [pics] Kansas Dollars & Cents 12 19-01-2010 16:40


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:31.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.