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Old 02-10-2016, 12:12   #196
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Re: Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Why does there have to be a traditional nav vs. electronics dichotomy? I personally think you need to be strong in both. They are very much complementary to one another.
There's plenty of discussion on tools and techniques, but it seems clear to me that the answer to the original question is "We all need to know how to navigate, using tools and techniques appropriate to our situation."

Of course, trying to expand on that just sends us down the same rathole. (Correlation of this term to my signature line was unintentional.)
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Old 02-10-2016, 12:41   #197
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Re: Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

I think the dichotomy because so many people can only either use the sextant and so they will fear the gps OR else they can use the gps only and will not give a hoot for the sextant.

I can use and I use both and pop comes the weasel no dichotomy. People are just lazy and refuse to learn new tricks.

Why make the effort and learn something new if you can simply say it is 'outdated' or 'not safe' and then keep on sipping your beer in total ignorant bliss?

I like to use my (edited) brain.

;-)
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Old 02-10-2016, 13:39   #198
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Re: Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

Quote: "If you've got an analog watch or clock, point the hour hand at the sun. The N/S line lies half way between the hour hand and 12 o'clock."

Blimey!! That Baden-Powell guy gets around, doesn't he :-)?

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Old 02-10-2016, 13:45   #199
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Re: Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

Don't forget to allow for daylight saving time.
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Old 02-10-2016, 13:53   #200
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Re: Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

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Originally Posted by AnglaisInHull View Post
Don't forget to allow for daylight saving time.
Actually you need to set the clock to local time based on local noon, not the time zone, for this to work perfectly. But still it's close enough and a great trick. I think I learned it in boy scouts.
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Old 02-10-2016, 16:57   #201
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Re: Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

Dockhead, I am happy to hear your believe that the systems are complimentary. I agree, and have said as much. I am also happy to be corrected on the use of a tablet. Whilst sailing on the water (as opposed to reading about sailing and therfore becoming another armchair specialist) one does not keep abreast of news, let alone technology. That is one of the pleasures of sailing. However, whilst one other poster has established their lack of ability to comprehend postings correctly - eg that I do use reasonably current tech and do keep a store of batteries and that I was talking being off-shore. It does not preclude the situation of being found short without paper charts - how else to run your DR? It just keeps coming back to having paper charts after all!! I still do not believe that placing reliance on an older tablet or with older batteries is a reliable alternative. From the tablets we have on board they all have internal batteries so a stock of batteries would not help. The use of a tablet will not be for a few moments - it shall be a fair while as it needs to find itself and then get to see enough satellites before giving a fix. Then you still need to zoom in and out to see what is around you and to get the bigger picture. All power hungry activities. I am doubtful about how many people have a solar charger dedicated to an old tablet with the requisite charts loaded that they keep just for emergency purposes. I think you are a rarity in that regard. How many solar chargers do you have? We have just the one, a PowerGorilla that pumps up a battery so that we can supply muliple devices. It is also waterproof. The amount of money tied up in decaying electronics is likely exceeding the cost of a half decent plastic sextant, air tables, clock and some small scale charts.
We do of course keep batteries, in a 'lock and lock' plastic box, and sequence the use of 'em. I am aware of the claims of their longevity but have yet to see them survive anywhere near as long as this. Perhaps your vacuum wrap assists but if I did that I would need a vacuum sealer on board as we cycle our battery stocks. The DD cells do seem to last longer in decent quality torches, but 'AA' and 'AAA' never seem to survive longer than a few months despite the advertising. Whilst these are very cheap in some locations, in others they can be hard to even find and are often expensive.
I think that if the other poster ever sails offshore than they shall eventually realise their vulnerability and stop scoffing at people that do try and maintain an alternative. Meanwhile, their last posting is to ridiculous to even warrant the bother of a response ...totally apparent that they do not understand even the rudimentary basics of navigation.
Each to their own and my alternative is the trusted and tried traditional method. Other may place their reliance on technology and that is their business/choice.
You mention oxygen absorbers - can you identify what you use as that would be useful. We have silica gel bags that we reuse by drying them in a warm oven but that is only a moisture absorber.
Best wishes.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Why does there have to be a traditional nav vs. electronics dichotomy? I personally think you need to be strong in both. They are very much complementary to one another.

As to batteries: Duracells are good for 10 years. https://www.duracell.com/en-us/produ...ertop-battery/

I keep a significant supply (maybe 80 of them) vacuum packed with desiccation and oxygen absorbers in the grab bag. That is on top of the normal ship's supply (used for flashlights and all kinds of other stuff).

No kind of schlepp at all.

Besides that, a solar charger for anything which has a rechargeable battery.





No, the GPS on modern tablets, the GPS works like any other. Actually better, since they all now receive GLONASS as well as GPS.



I keep an old Android tablet with GPS/GLONASS, OpenCPN, and the whole world on CM93 charts, in a cookie tin. Recharge it with the solar charger.

But in an emergency situation, you probably wouldn't even need to recharge it. Switch it on once or twice a day and use DR in between.


I think we're all grossly overthinking this. If you have a bit of common sense and normal seamanship, and a minimal level of preparation, then none of these things is a matter of life and death.

My Dad's boat was hit directly by lightning some years ago, which obliterated everything electronic and electric on board except the engine starting system. Unlike me, he had no backups to anything.

Did he freak out? My Dad is not the greatest navigator in the world, but he didn't freak out. In fact he continued his cruise using a HBC and paper charts, windex, etc., and basic pilotage, without any electronic navigation aids of any kind, no sextant, and no way to know his position except three point fixes, and if I know him, he didn't even bother to do those. When in doubt, he just stood off. No big deal. The worst thing was he couldn't make ice for his martinis, and I bet he would have stayed out another week if it hadn't been for that.
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Old 02-10-2016, 17:07   #202
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pirate Re: Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

I only do Transats W to E.. coz when a contrail crosses my front at 7.35pm I know its time to head NE...
Thar be the Azores..
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Old 02-10-2016, 17:12   #203
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Re: Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulawayo View Post
Dockhead, I am happy to hear your believe that the systems are complimentary. I agree, and have said as much. I am also happy to be corrected on the use of a tablet. Whilst sailing on the water (as opposed to reading about sailing and therfore becoming another armchair specialist) one does not keep abreast of news, let alone technology. That is one of the pleasures of sailing. However, whilst one other poster has established their lack of ability to comprehend postings correctly - eg that I do use reasonably current tech and do keep a store of batteries and that I was talking being off-shore. It does not preclude the situation of being found short without paper charts - how else to run your DR? It just keeps coming back to having paper charts after all!! I still do not believe that placing reliance on an older tablet or with older batteries is a reliable alternative. From the tablets we have on board they all have internal batteries so a stock of batteries would not help. The use of a tablet will not be for a few moments - it shall be a fair while as it needs to find itself and then get to see enough satellites before giving a fix. Then you still need to zoom in and out to see what is around you and to get the bigger picture. All power hungry activities. I am doubtful about how many people have a solar charger dedicated to an old tablet with the requisite charts loaded that they keep just for emergency purposes. I think you are a rarity in that regard. How many solar chargers do you have? We have just the one, a PowerGorilla that pumps up a battery so that we can supply muliple devices. It is also waterproof. The amount of money tied up in decaying electronics is likely exceeding the cost of a half decent plastic sextant, air tables, clock and some small scale charts.
We do of course keep batteries, in a 'lock and lock' plastic box, and sequence the use of 'em. I am aware of the claims of their longevity but have yet to see them survive anywhere near as long as this. Perhaps your vacuum wrap assists but if I did that I would need a vacuum sealer on board as we cycle our battery stocks. The DD cells do seem to last longer in decent quality torches, but 'AA' and 'AAA' never seem to survive longer than a few months despite the advertising. Whilst these are very cheap in some locations, in others they can be hard to even find and are often expensive.
I think that if the other poster ever sails offshore than they shall eventually realise their vulnerability and stop scoffing at people that do try and maintain an alternative. Meanwhile, their last posting is to ridiculous to even warrant the bother of a response ...totally apparent that they do not understand even the rudimentary basics of navigation.
Each to their own and my alternative is the trusted and tried traditional method. Other may place their reliance on technology and that is their business/choice.
You mention oxygen absorbers - can you identify what you use as that would be useful. We have silica gel bags that we reuse by drying them in a warm oven but that is only a moisture absorber.
Best wishes.
Well, we have multiple resources, and multiple techniques, at our disposal, in case something goes wrong.

But - the bottom line really is, that once I'm out of sight of land, I really don't worry about any of this. It's not actually so important, to know exactly where you are. The general compass direction is usually quite fine.

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Old 02-10-2016, 17:25   #204
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Re: Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

Me neither, but some people believe you can see it from everywhere and even that it is the brightest body in the night sky.


Quote:
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Can't see the north star where I sail
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Old 02-10-2016, 17:49   #205
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Re: Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

OH BOY........


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Well, we have multiple resources, and multiple techniques, at our disposal, in case something goes wrong.

But - the bottom line really is, that once I'm out of sight of land, I really don't worry about any of this. It's not actually so important, to know exactly where you are. The general compass direction is usually quite fine.

Sent from my D6633 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
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Old 02-10-2016, 17:53   #206
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Re: Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

I'll be in Sal in a months time; see you there?
That puts you somewhere SW of the Azores ....it'll be dark at that time so you probably wont see the contrail. Need a full moon but that wont be up then!!

Quote:
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I only do Transats W to E.. coz when a contrail crosses my front at 7.35pm I know its time to head NE...
Thar be the Azores..
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Old 02-10-2016, 17:58   #207
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Re: Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
Good trick (and there are many more) but for someone with minimal astronomical knowledge, most people are familiar with where the sun rises and sets and can make a good rough estimate to set a compass heading (north star is even better if not too far south)

Reality is for the vanishingly rare situation where all electronics fail, there are simple options that will get you pointed in the right direction.
In the southern hemisphere it is exceedingly simple to find 'south' using the Southern Cross and the two 'Pointers'.

East and west?.... just use the centre of Orion's belt when its rising or setting.
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Old 02-10-2016, 18:02   #208
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pirate Re: Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

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I'll be in Sal in a months time; see you there?
That puts you somewhere SW of the Azores ....it'll be dark at that time so you probably wont see the contrail. Need a full moon but that wont be up then!!
No way.. its not dark till 2015 this time of year.. normal transat time its around 2145
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Old 02-10-2016, 18:05   #209
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pirate Re: Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

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In the southern hemisphere it is exceedingly simple to find 'south' using the Southern Cross and the two 'Pointers'.

East and west?.... just use the centre of Orion's belt when its rising or setting.
Some folks really over complicate things..
If the sunrise is to your left your heading South.. if its on your right your headed North.. sunsets the opposite..
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Old 02-10-2016, 18:27   #210
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Re: Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

It would seem we old farts (as in those who learned to navigate before all the gizmos) seem to have the question down..... the newbies not so much
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