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Old 25-09-2016, 20:16   #136
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Re: Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

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Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
Barnacle,

There is no question that just because something hasn't happened, or we have no record of it, means that it can't happen. But at some point you have to make the decision that the risk of X is low enough that you can dispense with resolving it. It's a decision of how much risk is acceptable.

(...)
Again, I am with you and see things in nearly the same light.

I think where I do differ from your take on things is not in the pragmatics or in applied reasoning, but rather only in how I manage the residual risks.

My take is generally along the lines of: "when you assume something may happen, but you do not know when or if it will happen, act as if it were to eventually happen". Give or take.(Excuse me my poor English). Hope for the best, plan for the worst.

This could be all due to the simple fact that when I went thru the maritime college the gps was not yet part of our everyday life (yes, I am that old). And so I may be sticking to old and possibly outdated (but not irrational) procedures.

Not to say I cannot, or do not use, the gps (and glonass and beidou). I actually overuse our (simple) devices and I too get at times shocked by how very shallow the related know-how of our fellow pleasure boaters is (e.g. them not knowing that even a pretty basic gps device - even without gps signal - can be used for navigation, including astro navigation, and them not using vmg to guide us in choosing the better tack.)

So, yes, I am a believer in the church of ultimate failure. But I am joyful believer and one secretly baptized in a couple of other faiths, just in case ...

Bueno. + A hug,
b.
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Old 25-09-2016, 20:53   #137
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Re: Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

Can we move on with the next thing that will never happen?

National Positioning, Navigation, and Timing Resilience and Security Act of 2016
More info:
H.R. 5978 (2016)
H.R. 5531 (2016)
H.R. 1678 (2015)
BILL
UPDATED Rep. Duncan Hunter reintroduced this legislation on September 9, 2016, as an element of H.R. 5978, the Coast Guard and Maritime Transportation Amendments Act of 2016. Section 106 of the bill, titled "Backup Global Positioning System", proposes that:

Subject to the availability of appropriations, the Commandant of the Coast Guard, in consultation with the Secretary of Transportation, shall provide for the establishment, sustainment, and operation of a reliable land-based enhanced LORAN, or eLORAN, positioning, navigation, and timing system to provide a complement to and backup for the Global Positioning System (in this section referred to as 'GPS') to ensure the availability of uncorrupted and nondegraded positioning, navigation, and timing signals for military and civilian users in the event that GPS signals are corrupted, degraded, unreliable, or otherwise unavailable.

Bill Status

The bill passed the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee on September 14, 2016, following a September 7 hearing on federal maritime navigation programs. VIEW
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Old 25-09-2016, 22:01   #138
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Re: Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

When I first sailed offshore our only choice was using a sextant and tables, charts etc, well there was sat navigation but none of us could afford one. That aside along came GPS and the days of navigating were over and personally I could care less. GPS is absolutely a wonderful invention and I don't care to ever go back to actually having to navigate again, it's just so damn easy these days anybody with half a brain can now go cruising and always know exactly where he is, where he was and where he is going, how do you beat that. Guys like Captain Cook navigated and to a much lesser degree prior to gps we also navigated although it was much easier than in it had been in the past when there was no tables and you had to be a mathematician to cross oceans. Very few, if any boaters navigate these days, it's all done for them, so no you don't need to know how to navigate these days.
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Old 26-09-2016, 00:27   #139
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Re: Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

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Originally Posted by OldFrog75 View Post

I wonder how many hikers carry a magnetic compass and topo maps when they hit the trail?
I never go out without them. Partly for redundancy, but mainly because - as someone else pointed out - without the tops map (paper chart) you don't have the big picture. I haven't yet seen a chart plotter with a screen big enough to replace that.
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Old 26-09-2016, 06:40   #140
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Re: Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

Bingo!

Now that Northern Americans are about to fund eLoran to the whole world, we can FINALLY abandon all navigation skills!

Yippieee!!!!

;-)
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Old 26-09-2016, 07:01   #141
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Re: Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

How far offshore will this new LORAN be viable?.... What about the baseline extension issues, that used to be a weakness of the old LORAN?
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Old 26-09-2016, 09:57   #142
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Re: Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

Was just watching a tv show featuring the USS New York on excercises, their " enemy target" started blocking/jamming (or something) gps, all units on the ship went down, the crew instantly went to paper charts and traditional navigation.
Show is called Mighty Ships.
Intersting that they would show that on TV, made me wonder how "easy" it could be.
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Old 26-09-2016, 09:58   #143
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Re: Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

May I just briefly say how much I've enjoyed reading a thread with strongly held, differing opinions and the word "asshat" hasn't been used once? I can't contribute much about GPS, but as an HF radio operator for 20 years I can tell a thing or two about the effects of solar storms on HF communications. Even got invited to NOAA Boulder CO to see their observation facility and was lucky enough to see one as it happened. I will go sit in the dinosaur corner now and continue reading.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
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Old 26-09-2016, 12:40   #144
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Re: Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

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How far offshore will this new LORAN be viable?.... What about the baseline extension issues, that used to be a weakness of the old LORAN?
Far off the Ruski shore and some distance off the US coast.

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Old 26-09-2016, 13:22   #145
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Re: Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

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Originally Posted by Siberianhusky View Post
Was just watching a tv show featuring the USS New York on excercises, their " enemy target" started blocking/jamming (or something) gps, all units on the ship went down, the crew instantly went to paper charts and traditional navigation.
Show is called Mighty Ships.
Intersting that they would show that on TV, made me wonder how "easy" it could be.
In 1980 I was on a delivery when we lost our rudder. We ended up getting a tow from an RFA (Royal Fleet Auxilliary) freighter, Sir Tristram. As soon as we were underway the navigator, having spied our new GPS mushroom antenna, called us up and said, "Say chaps, you wouldn't mind giving us a fix every hour would you?" Upon arriving, all of us in the pub, the navigator shared a good laugh out of being the only one who was actually happy to be picking up a disabled yacht. He felt a little bit guilty that the rest of the trip was so easy for him. However, I haven't checked, but I'd bet the RFA too still has their sextants at the ready, in spite of modern technology....
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Old 26-09-2016, 13:23   #146
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Re: Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

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(...)

the crew instantly went to paper charts and traditional navigation.

(...)
Completely ignoring the fact that the warheads they fired up towards Moscov were also gps driven. Wonder where these went to ...

;-)

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Old 26-09-2016, 16:10   #147
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Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

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Completely ignoring the fact that the warheads they fired up towards Moscov were also gps driven. Wonder where these went to ...

;-)

b.

Not so much. Ballistic and cruise missile warheads run boost on inertial and GPS navigation with terminal fine tuning using GPS and radar topography.

Ballistic and cruise missiles are plenty accurate without GPS.


A house is but a boat so poorly built and so firmly run aground you would never try to refloat it.
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Old 27-09-2016, 04:08   #148
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Re: Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

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The sea may be the last refuge for those who dance to a different drummer.
Thank you for that. I really love that thought. I am quoting it here in the hope I will see it again.

My memory isn't what it ought to be...
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Old 27-09-2016, 08:04   #149
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Re: Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

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Not so much. Ballistic and cruise missile warheads run boost on inertial and GPS navigation with terminal fine tuning using GPS and radar topography.

Ballistic and cruise missiles are plenty accurate without GPS.


A house is but a boat so poorly built and so firmly run aground you would never try to refloat it.
Yes. I know they have inertial nav onboard.

I remember reading they tried to limit the missiles reliance on gps exactly for the reasons we are discussing here. Another factor is speed. Apparently for such fast moving objects gps is way less accurate than for us sailors.

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Old 27-09-2016, 14:50   #150
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Re: Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

Anyone who thinks they can leave celestial navigation until it is needed are in for a shock.
It requires constant practice to be any good.
Otherwise it is as reliable as a rough DR.

The real need, still, is coastal navigation. Identifying the rocks before you hit them.
Plenty of accidents still with over reliance on electronics instead of eyeball.
Descendants of the same people who relied on lines on the chart instead of looking out the window.
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