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Old 22-10-2013, 09:10   #16
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Re: NOAA Stops Printing Nautical Charts

Paper charts today are like LORAN-C was in 2010. See Ya

“LORAN-C was a ground-based navigation system operated by the U.S. Coast Guard. In 2009, the President declared the system obsolete and terminate it in 2010.”

In the future our governments will save even more money as they will remove buoys’ and navigation aids and just project them as a layer on electronic chart plotters.

It’s getting harder and harder to find street maps and in a few years those will all be gone.

Embrace your future or be a land lubber and do not leave home.
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Old 22-10-2013, 09:26   #17
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Re: NOAA Stops Printing Nautical Charts

Hi, Cotemar,

I'm not saying you're wrong, but for what it's worth, I saw the paper chart one of the Australian warships was using when they navigated up the Derwent for one of those PR docking for the public sorts of events, and they were piloting by bearings on marks along the channel, all written in pencil on the charts.

So I think, maybe the change won't be quite as fast as having happened yesterday.

Have pity on those of us who do not trust vulnerable to water and lightening electronics as much as you. Different experiences, and I'm with carstenb on this one. By the way, yes, I have dried salt-water impregnated charts, and they work. I doubt an i-pad that went swimming would be resuscitatable. I like having both paper and electronic available.

Ann
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Old 22-10-2013, 09:33   #18
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Re: NOAA Stops Printing Nautical Charts

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
Hi, Cotemar,

I'm not saying you're wrong, but for what it's worth, I saw the paper chart one of the Australian warships was using when they navigated up the Derwent for one of those PR docking for the public sorts of events, and they were piloting by bearings on marks along the channel, all written in pencil on the charts.

So I think, maybe the change won't be quite as fast as having happened yesterday.

Have pity on those of us who do not trust vulnerable to water and lightening electronics as much as you. Different experiences, and I'm with carstenb on this one. By the way, yes, I have dried salt-water impregnated charts, and they work. I doubt an i-pad that went swimming would be resuscitatable. I like having both paper and electronic available.

Ann
Oh no. Do not get me wrong.
I have paper charts somewhere on my boat as a backup. It may take me a minute to find them as I have not used them in 5 years.

Paper charts really suck when I night sail as they reck my night vision.
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Old 22-10-2013, 09:36   #19
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Re: NOAA Stops Printing Nautical Charts

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Paper charts today are like LORAN-C was in 2010. See Ya
The difference being that LORAN was pretty much obsolete, whereas paper charts clearly aren't. Both paper and digital have their merits and suit different types of sailors. What makes me sure that paper will be around for a while yet is that it's perfectly sensible to leave port without a chartplotter, but leaving without a paper copy is generally (IMHO rightly) frowned upon.

Even LORAN isn't dead, as eLoran is being installed for the English Channel because of the potentially catastrophic consequences of GPS jamming. If we can't kill LORAN we certainly can't kill paper charts.
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Old 22-10-2013, 09:39   #20
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Re: NOAA Stops Printing Nautical Charts

All paper for me, all the time. I've clocked ~3k nm this year alone slicing around islands, shoals, reefs, and various other knickknacks.

I'm also a professional software developer with a lot of experience in spatial data, location based services, and do lots of data work with tracks and weather. But for operating a boat, it's paper, pencil, and hand plotting tools.
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Old 22-10-2013, 10:00   #21
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Re: NOAA Stops Printing Nautical Charts

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All paper for me, all the time. I've clocked ~3k nm this year alone slicing around islands, shoals, reefs, and various other knickknacks.

I'm also a professional software developer with a lot of experience in spatial data, location based services, and do lots of data work with tracks and weather. But for operating a boat, it's paper, pencil, and hand plotting tools.
Let me know how that paper chart works a 3am in pitch dark in a narrow shipping lane with a 600 foot ship coming at your bow and two 500 foot tankers at your stern.

No chart plotter. No AIS. You just have paper charts. All three ships see some small boat in the channel, but do not know what it is or if it is real. All three ships try to call something on your VHF. Your coming up on red buoy 5. If you have not sheet your pants yet, you will soon. Small boats get run over all the time and the large ships never even know they just did a hit and run.

With a Chart plotter and AIS those three ships see you and have collision avoidance and contact you by name. You never lose your night vision and its full speed ahead with no worries and clean underpants.
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Old 22-10-2013, 10:01   #22
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Re: NOAA Stops Printing Nautical Charts

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Paper charts today are like LORAN-C was in 2010. See Ya

“LORAN-C was a ground-based navigation system operated by the U.S. Coast Guard. In 2009, the President declared the system obsolete and terminate it in 2010.”
Facts of course tend to intrude.

The US has very short slighty bowed aweay from e-Loran, but many other countries especially in Northern Europe are committed to its implementation as a system independent of GNSS space based systems. Its being led by the UK

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In the future our governments will save even more money as they will remove buoys’ and navigation aids and just project them as a layer on electronic chart plotters.
There has been no such advocate of such policy from within the IALA community, it has been discussed, the technology is there( even if the security isn't ), but there are serious safety issues at play and it will not be today or tomorrow when such an action ( if ever) takes places.

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It’s getting harder and harder to find street maps and in a few years those will all be gone
.

Maybe but my local newspaper shop has loads.

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Embrace your future or be a land lubber and do not leave home.
Undoubtedly the future will bring excusively digital charts thats clear, especially with the IMO decision on ECDIS as meeting the mandatory requirements, thats a clear nail in the coffin. As to teh rest I think its fun future gazing , you might like this 26 Shockingly Bad Predictions

Dave
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Old 22-10-2013, 10:03   #23
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Re: NOAA Stops Printing Nautical Charts

Cotemar,

Yeah, the loss of night vision can be a nuisance. In my case, my two eyes are not the same, so for the chart, I close the better eye, to retain its night vision; then use only the weaker one for checking the chart. (Actually do that to look at the chart plotter, too.) It works.

In the possible collision situation mentioned above, I'd not be below fooling around with the chart; on deck judging what's next to do. Being proactive is a good deal.

Ann
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Old 22-10-2013, 10:07   #24
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Re: NOAA Stops Printing Nautical Charts

Paper charts are a USCG requirement when a dockside curtesy exam is performed on commercial vessels, even with plotters and /or computers with ENC's are on board.
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Old 22-10-2013, 10:40   #25
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Re: NOAA Stops Printing Nautical Charts

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Paper charts are a USCG requirement when a dockside curtesy exam is performed on commercial vessels, even with plotters and /or computers with ENC's are on board.
Yes the US is out of step with its obligations under SOLAS V ( of course this could be another one not ratified !). In time they will fall into line and accept IMO ECDIS as a substitute for the carriage of paper charts. Foreign vessels in US waters are already exempt.

Furthermore my understanding is that on US vessels engaged in international travel, IMO approved ECDIS IS accepted as meeting chart carriage requirements, so its only US vessels NOT engaged in international travel that require paper charts ,

Its even doubly strange given the NOAA view on paper. !!

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Old 22-10-2013, 10:58   #26
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Re: NOAA Stops Printing Nautical Charts

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
...

In the possible collision situation mentioned above, I'd not be below fooling around with the chart; on deck judging what's next to do. Being proactive is a good deal.

Ann
Way to go Ann +++ 1 on that.

Cotemar, your turn...

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Old 22-10-2013, 13:17   #27
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Re: NOAA Stops Printing Nautical Charts

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Let me know how that paper chart works a 3am in pitch dark in a narrow shipping lane with a 600 foot ship coming at your bow and two 500 foot tankers at your stern.

No chart plotter. No AIS. You just have paper charts. All three ships see some small boat in the channel, but do not know what it is or if it is real. All three ships try to call something on your VHF. Your coming up on red buoy 5. If you have not sheet your pants yet, you will soon. Small boats get run over all the time and the large ships never even know they just did a hit and run.

With a Chart plotter and AIS those three ships see you and have collision avoidance and contact you by name. You never lose your night vision and its full speed ahead with no worries and clean underpants.
We can trade scenarios all day long. I'm not Admiral Drake but I've got enough sea time and experience to know what works for me, and I've dealt with shipping lanes.

And who said I don't have AIS? I have an AIS transponder onboard and the readout is on the GX2150 radio receiver. I pick up vessels over 100nm away. I also have a non-integrated radar, depth, three GPS's, and a RAM3 remote in the cockpit.

I'm not some luddite longing for the stone ages. Manual navigation, quite frankly, makes you a better navigator. You employ more advanced technique, pay more attention, and need more skills to do it properly.

If your goal is to make music, buy a kazoo. If your goal is to be a musician, learn piano.

The fact that you're in a shipping lane looking around at targets on the plotter instead of observing reality ahead of you is indicative of the problems with electronic navigation: looking towards screens rather than at the surroundings.
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Old 22-10-2013, 13:23   #28
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Re: NOAA Stops Printing Nautical Charts

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I'm not some luddite longing for the stone ages. Manual navigation, quite frankly, makes you a better navigator. You employ more advanced technique, pay more attention, and need more skills to do it properly.
Manual navigation has nothing to do with electronic charts, what you are talking about is electronic position fixing, ( which is a different argument and one that I disagree with your comments).

Quote:
The fact that you're in a shipping lane looking around at targets on the plotter instead of observing reality ahead of you is indicative of the problems with electronic navigation: looking towards screens rather than at the surrounding
A common fail factor in RYA Yachtmaster candidates, using paper charts and traditional techniques is far too much time is spent at the chart table. Modern system actually relieve an overpressed skipper from this aspect and is to be welcomed.

Every system , traditional or new can be used badly, or promote bad processes. Merely employing paper charts and a sextant, does NOT make you a better navigator as the thousands of wrecks are testament to.

Dave
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Old 22-10-2013, 13:37   #29
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Re: NOAA Stops Printing Nautical Charts

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Manual navigation has nothing to do with electronic charts, what you are talking about is electronic position fixing, ( which is a different argument and one that I disagree with your comments).



A common fail factor in RYA Yachtmaster candidates, using paper charts and traditional techniques is far too much time is spent at the chart table. Modern system actually relieve an overpressed skipper from this aspect and is to be welcomed.

Every system , traditional or new can be used badly, or promote bad processes. Merely employing paper charts and a sextant, does NOT make you a better navigator as the thousands of wrecks are testament to.

Dave
Well like I said, I'm not here trying to convince anyone. I think it's fairly evident that the boats with the crews with longer mileage, more far flung places, and further off the beaten path stick with manual navigation.

Manual navigation has everything to do with electronic charts. Show me anyone with a chartplotter who uses a hand bearing compass to do 3LOP fixes routinely.

In my own experiences, both from observing here and on the water, chart plotter reliance has been the downfall of plenty of boats. People open up cruising guides, pop in waypoints, and steer (or better, wire the autopilot to the chart plotter).

I'll leave the thread; people will do what they want, good luck.

California boating guide-news & classifieds

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The most recent incident began at about 10 p.m. March 26 when the skipper of a 42-ft. sailboat could not find the entrance to San Diego Harbor. Conditions were clear with a high marine layer.

"He was south of the Zuniga Jetty off the Hotel del Coronado and couldn't find the channel due to lights in the background," said Sea Tow Capt. Greg Dreischmeyer.

"He had been stuck searching for the channel entrance for four or five hours and for some reason couldn't get his chart plotter to function; it kept reading data error every time he tried to load the card for the San Diego area."
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Old 22-10-2013, 15:04   #30
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Re: NOAA Stops Printing Nautical Charts

I don't think inkjet inks have ever gotten any cheaper, they're about $4000/gallon once you add up the little milliliter cartridges. When post-size inkjet printers were a bold new thing, I know it cost us about $40 for just the ink for one poster, about 5 square feet in area. Architectural plotters--real pen plotters--can't color in charts the way inkjets can. Plotters draw lines, they're lousy at filled colors like our charts have.

Offset lithography is way cheaper but doesn't pay until you're running off lots of a thousand and more and I think we're seeing simple economics. For commercial and military users, it is simple and cheaper to print on demand, even at $40/chart, and get all the updates added in from the database on the fly, than it is to buy, store, replace, throw out, replace, etc. a whole stack of charts.

Which just leaves the pleasure sailors, and this tail ain't wagging that dog. Ante up your $40, or print out your own small pages and tape 'em together. It seems inevitable, because printing and stockpiling and recalling and trashing all the charts every week is just economically unfeasible.

I don't like it, but I appreciate the need to do it this way.
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