Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 11-03-2012, 16:41   #46
Pusher of String
 
foolishsailor's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: On the hard; Trinidad
Boat: Trisbal 42, Aluminum Cutter Rigged Sloop
Posts: 2,314
Images: 19
There are a bizillion alternatives to the iPad that are hardened and waterproof...my comments only relate to the iPad...
__________________

__________________
"So, rather than appear foolish afterward, I renounce seeming clever now."
William of Baskerville

"You will do foolish things, but do them with enthusiasm."
Sidonie Gabrielle Colette
foolishsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2012, 16:50   #47
Pusher of String
 
foolishsailor's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: On the hard; Trinidad
Boat: Trisbal 42, Aluminum Cutter Rigged Sloop
Posts: 2,314
Images: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by GPSNavX
foolishsailor, what is the iPad GPS update rate? (i.e. what is the frequency of updates)
In fairness I have no f'ing idea...

But when I use the Bluetooth or wifi repeater tech to pull data from my Bluetooth multiplexor the speed, wind, etc update rate is VASTLY slower than my furuno plotter or furuno rd30 or even ,y handheld. Is it the iPad gps refresh data rate, is it the refresh rate of the software? Who knows, it is harder to tell when I use it with navionics as the refresh rate is unlear in that environment...I am sure you are going to tell me the answer to the question you just asked...

...to be honest I don't care, in real world situations utilising n,ea repeaters I find it less than satisfactory. I have also used an iPhone in a waterproof case with prerelease software strapped on my arm in race conditions both around the cans and offshore and have interfaced with develpoers and the fact is it does not update and refresh nor it is as accurate as marine designed software.

Biut let's be clear I am very pro iPad but to claim it is anything other than beta tech compared to firmware and hardware designed for the job is to be disingenuous at best.
__________________

__________________
"So, rather than appear foolish afterward, I renounce seeming clever now."
William of Baskerville

"You will do foolish things, but do them with enthusiasm."
Sidonie Gabrielle Colette
foolishsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2012, 17:18   #48
Pusher of String
 
foolishsailor's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: On the hard; Trinidad
Boat: Trisbal 42, Aluminum Cutter Rigged Sloop
Posts: 2,314
Images: 19
By the way with a little in depth research on the inter webs for 5 mins ...lit turns out the iPad and ipad2 refresh gps at 1hz...ie once per second...you can buy aftermarket products that plug into the bottom of the iPad, and also prevent you from plugging in power by the way that increase the update rate to 10hz....

Slower than I thought to be honest, now I am going to have to run my hyper terminal on my multiplexor to see what rate my nmea signals are coming through when it is set at 38k baud to get a real feel for the update rate on the iPad...as it is less the gps data rate as the general nmea rate I am concerned with...as n,ea is really just text files it should be faster???

...is there an nmea "reader " app out there that I can download that will allow me to actually see the nmea text on my iPad?
__________________
"So, rather than appear foolish afterward, I renounce seeming clever now."
William of Baskerville

"You will do foolish things, but do them with enthusiasm."
Sidonie Gabrielle Colette
foolishsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2012, 17:33   #49
Marine Service Provider
 
GPSNavX's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Pacific North West
Posts: 215
Re: New iPad GPS?

The rate at which NMEA data flows has nothing to do with a GPS receivers rate to calculate and publish a new position. Those are two independent processes. Internally, iOS (the iPad operating system) does not use the NMEA-0183 protocol for positional data. Instead Apple has their own "Location Services" which will send an app a new position based on how accurate the app desires. I would suspect most nav apps uses the best accuracy. This means whenever the iDevice moves a new position is generated for the app. It is up to the app to decide how to act on that new position information (i.e. re-plot a position icon, calculate a new bearing to a waypoint, etc.). There are apps (i.e. GPS2IP) that will take the "Location Services" data and send it out over WiFi formatted for the NMEA-0183 protocol letting one use the iDevice GPS as a source for positional data in other apps on say a PC or a Mac or even an iPad WiFi that does not have a GPS receiver.
__________________
GPSNavX - Marine navigation and weather software for Mac and iPhone/iPad/iPod
GPSNavX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2012, 17:44   #50
Registered User
 
Doodles's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Virginia, USA & Krabi, Thailand
Boat: Wauquiez Pretorien 35; Nordica 16
Posts: 2,810
Images: 1
Re: New iPad GPS?

They can claim what they want but Apple has already sold over 40 million iPad and the projections are for another 48 million in 2012 alone so I'm guessing the developers will be plenty busy with the iPad platform.
__________________
Mundis Ex Igne Factus Est
Doodles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2012, 17:45   #51
Pusher of String
 
foolishsailor's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: On the hard; Trinidad
Boat: Trisbal 42, Aluminum Cutter Rigged Sloop
Posts: 2,314
Images: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by GPSNavX
The rate at which NMEA data flows has nothing to do with a GPS receivers rate to calculate and publish a new position. Those are two independent processes. Internally, iOS (the iPad operating system) does not use the NMEA-0183 protocol for positional data. Instead Apple has their own "Location Services" which will send an app a new position based on how accurate the app desires. I would suspect most nav apps uses the best accuracy. This means whenever the iDevice moves a new position is generated for the app. It is up to the app to decide how to act on that new position information (i.e. re-plot a position icon, calculate a new bearing to a waypoint, etc.). There are apps (i.e. GPS2IP) that will take the "Location Services" data and send it out over WiFi formatted for the NMEA-0183 protocol letting one use the iDevice GPS as a source for positional data in other apps on say a PC or a Mac or even an iPad WiFi that does not have a GPS receiver.
I have not been clear as I'm am speaking about two different issues I have with the iPad...the n,ea refresh rate on a specific app I use and the gps refresh rate. I fully understand that the internal gps refresh rate is utterly different from the refresh rate of an external n,ea repeater, which is apparent in my previous posts...

I have no use whatsoever for the location services as I use the iPad well outside both cellular and wifi range. I also understand that 1hz update is not the total truth in terms of the refresh rate for gps as marine systems use the differences in the integrated carrier phase to derive things such as speed, does iPad do this? I assume yes but dont know?

My main point of contention is that the iPad an iPhone are not of the same standard in terms of their user interface in bright light, their durability in extreme climes, their refresh rate for position using solely the devices internal gps, and their general use as a navigation device.

I use my ipad2 all the time as a nav device, but it is not and won't be with the next product release either, an offshore suitable nav tool.

As an ideveloper you may have a different opinion
__________________
"So, rather than appear foolish afterward, I renounce seeming clever now."
William of Baskerville

"You will do foolish things, but do them with enthusiasm."
Sidonie Gabrielle Colette
foolishsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2012, 17:54   #52
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
I would agree foolish sailor with you completely. Consumer electronics can be a supplemental to dedicated on board units but I for one would never rely on a IPad or other device as the sole display device.

The history too is that as competition grows prices fall and product quality is compromised.

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2012, 17:58   #53
Marine Service Provider
 
GPSNavX's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Pacific North West
Posts: 215
Re: New iPad GPS?

"Location Services" encompasses all methods an iDevice can determine it's location. It could solely use the internal GPS or it could if possible also use cell towers or WiFi. Of course offshore it would rely solely on the GPS receiver. Apple is not exactly forthcoming with specifics to "Location Services" capabilities. I can't speak for any specific app (except iNavX) to refresh rates. Best would be to contact the developer directly of any app you have a question about. We are in agreement that dedicated marine chart plotters are far more optimized for the marine environment than the iPad is. On the other hand, apps such as iNavX can do things most dedicated marine chart plotters can't. Such as send an email of a chart showing position, download and use the free NOAA charts, receive AIS data over an internet connection to name a few. Both have a place. App store rankings show me that the iPad is getting a good amount of traction in the marine space.
__________________
GPSNavX - Marine navigation and weather software for Mac and iPhone/iPad/iPod
GPSNavX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2012, 19:10   #54
Senior Cruiser
 
tartansail's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Tiverton, RI, USA
Boat: ex-Tartan 40
Posts: 614
Images: 1
Re: New iPad GPS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by foolishsailor View Post
Alpha is usually pre release and uses experienced developers to find issues and bugs...

Beta used to be the same as alpha but further along the development path and primarily used developers and advanced power users to flesh out final bugs, but in the case of iPad and windows now beta really mean general population, and they use unshosticated useers to flesh out bugs without the implied consent of users. Ie they sell you a product and wait for you to complain that it doesn't work as it should. Not nice if you are relying on a nav product and it craps out....

The iTunes store has allowed the rekease nav utilities without any real idea about the real use in real conditions. The platform, non hardened and non waterproff ipads, is not designed for the conditions of intended use, the screen of the device is not designed for the conditions, iPad doesn't work well in direct sunlight, and the firmware/software doesn't work optimally for the desired use, ie iPads gps update rate is vastly slower compared to comparable nav products...

...that makes it "beta tech"
I'm not sure that you're using beta the same way my developer colleagues use it -- non-release platform in testing mode by leading users to stabilize before general release. The iPad hardware platform has an installed base orders of magnitude beyond any nav platform used for the recreational boating population so I'm guessing you're not talking about the hardware. The software I've been using seems to have been in general release with multiple revs of upgrades to a general user population. I certainly don't think of it as "beta". Now, if what you're saying is that the iPad hardware platform and available software is not an optimum fit for the intended use -- not good sunlight viewing, not waterproof, evolving networking -- I'd be inclined to agree with you. That's why I have an MFD and another couple of backups (including paper). Incomplete fitness for the intended use is an issue, but to call it a "beta" implies that it will improve with general release. I see no reason to believe that is the case.

As to the perspective that one should buy a backup chartplotter as an alternative, that is a viable option if all you intend to use the iPad for is navigation. However, as someone who has many of his manuals backed up on the iPad, uses it for reading, email, and internet access, the overall value to me far outweighs the combination of a backup chartplotter and a laptop. YMMV.
__________________
- David
S/V Sapphire Tartan 40 #71

tartansail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2012, 03:13   #55
Pusher of String
 
foolishsailor's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: On the hard; Trinidad
Boat: Trisbal 42, Aluminum Cutter Rigged Sloop
Posts: 2,314
Images: 19
Re: New iPad GPS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GPSNavX View Post
"Location Services" encompasses all methods an iDevice can determine it's location. It could solely use the internal GPS or it could if possible also use cell towers or WiFi. Of course offshore it would rely solely on the GPS receiver. Apple is not exactly forthcoming with specifics to "Location Services" capabilities.
...thanks for the clarification

Quote:
Originally Posted by GPSNavX View Post
On the other hand, apps such as iNavX can do things most dedicated marine chart plotters can't.
You are dead right. The user interface on Ipad based marine nav are vastly superior. I have been using Navionics but after this chat I went and looked at your product and see that you DO support wifi based NMEA data including AIS overlay - you have unintentionally sold me on downloading the product.

If only there was a universal Radar protocol equivilent to NMEA that would allow radar overlays on Ipad? Is there one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tartansail View Post
I'm not sure that you're using beta the same way my developer colleagues use it...The software I've been using seems to have been in general release with multiple revs of upgrades to a general user population. I certainly don't think of it as "beta".
I was being a bit sarcastic - kinda like when people call windows a "perpetual beta product"

Quote:
Originally Posted by tartansail View Post
Now, if what you're saying is that the iPad hardware platform and available software is not an optimum fit for the intended use -- not good sunlight viewing, not waterproof, evolving networking -- I'd be inclined to agree with you.
Yes that it waht i meant

Quote:
Originally Posted by tartansail View Post
However, as someone who has many of his manuals backed up on the iPad, uses it for reading, email, and internet access, the overall value to me far outweighs the combination of a backup chartplotter and a laptop. YMMV.
I do the same. I love the Ipad and dearly wish it was more "marinized" as my dream as a lazy night watch is to be reading through my books on the Ipad version of kindle i have, swipe the pad to see my position with an AIS overlay and Radar, swipe again to see the XTE highway, swipe again to see the latest Synoptic chart my SSB downloaded onto the network, swipe again to see my grib files, and swipe again to go back to my book...

...oh yea and maybe lift my lazy head up and take a scan of the horizon.

Shame I cant do this easily in daylight or bad weather and as we mariners are not a large demographic I cant imagine that apple will ever take the cost to install a screen with the battery power behind it to be usable in the bright sunlight conditions that we need it for...
__________________
"So, rather than appear foolish afterward, I renounce seeming clever now."
William of Baskerville

"You will do foolish things, but do them with enthusiasm."
Sidonie Gabrielle Colette
foolishsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2012, 09:31   #56
Marine Service Provider
 
GPSNavX's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Pacific North West
Posts: 215
Re: New iPad GPS?

The marine market is minuscule compared to the general purpose computing market the iPad occupies. The best we can hope from Apple is applying some sort of moisture proofing solution internally and slightly increasing the screen brightness as battery technology improves.

So far RADAR has been proprietary. There has been some posts over on panbo.com about that possibly opening up, but the question will be licensing cost. Last I checked Simrad wanted upwards of US$1,200 per user for RADAR data connectivity.

GlobalMarine networks through the Iridium Satellite system are offering sat phone connectivity for downloading email, GRIB files, etc. to iPhone and iPad.
__________________
GPSNavX - Marine navigation and weather software for Mac and iPhone/iPad/iPod
GPSNavX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2012, 10:10   #57
Registered User
 
sww914's Avatar

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Punta De Mita
Boat: Vagabond 39 Hull # 1
Posts: 1,842
Re: New iPad GPS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NDH View Post
What is the battery life when using it for navigation. (I have often found with laptops that manufacturers claims are unrealistic)

Thanks
If we allow it to sleep automatically after 2 minutes of dis-use, we can make a 36 hour trip including lots of fiddling around with the iPad with 25% of the battery left when we arrive.
__________________
Steve
http://www.landfallvoyages.com
sww914 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2012, 10:39   #58
Registered User
 
redcobra's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Towson, MD Chesapeake Bay
Boat: Pearson 39 Yawl "ZigZag"
Posts: 516
Re: New iPad GPS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by foolishsailor View Post
Alpha is usually pre release and uses experienced developers to find issues and bugs...

Beta used to be the same as alpha but further along the development path and primarily used developers and advanced power users to flesh out final bugs, but in the case of iPad and windows now beta really mean general population, and they use unshosticated useers to flesh out bugs without the implied consent of users. Ie they sell you a product and wait for you to complain that it doesn't work as it should. Not nice if you are relying on a nav product and it craps out....

The iTunes store has allowed the rekease nav utilities without any real idea about the real use in real conditions. The platform, non hardened and non waterproff ipads, is not designed for the conditions of intended use, the screen of the device is not designed for the conditions, iPad doesn't work well in direct sunlight, and the firmware/software doesn't work optimally for the desired use, ie iPads gps update rate is vastly slower compared to comparable nav products...

...that makes it "beta tech"
Well, I would hardly call the 3rd generation iPad "betatech."
I had the opportunity over the weekend to compare my current Lenova laptop with Maptech software and an external GPS with a friends iPad2 running iNavX. I didn't really see alot of difference and he has a sunshade for the iPad. Wasn't real sunny, but it was fine. The NOAA RNC charts were fine and the ENC vector charts he had looked the same as the RM version I saw at BoatUS.

My upgrade choice (from a Garmin GPS with coastal charts and 2.5" screen) was to either add a RM e Series chartplotter to my existing instrumentation, or go with an iPad and software as a standalone that does not interface with the other instruments. Considering that I don't often spend more than 2 days or so without anchoring somewhere, and stay weather wise about when I sail, the iPad which will give me basic charting needs as well as the ability to read books, play chess, chat with friends, and surf Cruisers Forum, made it a no brainer. As far as waterproof and sun, I have a swing arm I'm going to mount it on that keeps it beneath the hatchcover in the companionway. And it will be powered from the house batteries via a 12v outlet. But then again, I've sailed for over 30 years with paper charts and only a depth sounder and for most of my sailing I won't even turn it on except to check the weather and get email.

Let's see now, a Raymarine E90W that only does one thing for $2500 or an iPad for $800 that does a bunch? (And I can take it wherever I go off the boat and use it at home.)
__________________
redcobra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2012, 10:52   #59
Registered User
 
redcobra's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Towson, MD Chesapeake Bay
Boat: Pearson 39 Yawl "ZigZag"
Posts: 516
Re: New iPad GPS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I would agree foolish sailor with you completely. Consumer electronics can be a supplemental to dedicated on board units but I for one would never rely on a IPad or other device as the sole display device.

The history too is that as competition grows prices fall and product quality is compromised.

Dave
I have no problem making the iPad my sole display device as long as I have my paper charts, lead line, and sextant.
__________________
redcobra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2012, 18:47   #60
Moderator Emeritus
 
Ex-Calif's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Boat: Maxi 77 - Relax Lah!
Posts: 11,514
Images: 4
Beta tech - lets try not to get bogged down in semantics. Suffice to sny there are many folks with strong desires to make the ipad a low cost solution for many things. Lets just call marine use "early versions" - the ipad is useful but is clearly mot "marine robust" in terms of hardware, software or software features.

I have the same issue with the screen legibility in bright sun.

Also a personal bias is that a 12 inch screen rigged up on sub 30 foot boats just looks uber crowded.

Having said that I am pushing forward with a post mount for my boat. I use the iphone and ipad as secondary nav understanding that my primary nav is still charts and DR for my coastal sailing.
__________________

__________________
Relax Lah! is For Sale <--- Click
Click--> Custom CF Google Search or CF Rules
You're gonna need a bigger boat... - Martin Brody
Ex-Calif is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
gps, Ipad

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Built a New Fridge janders Plumbing Systems and Fixtures 85 14-06-2012 16:55
New Member Roulbarik Meets & Greets 8 11-04-2012 23:42
Dousing My New Assymetrical With Sock rigormortis Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 15 04-04-2012 19:53
A New Coastie ! BareFtGrl Families, Kids and Pets Afloat 19 09-03-2012 18:27
GPS may be disrupted on 3/8 and 3/9 Target9000 Navigation 5 09-03-2012 11:30



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 13:25.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.