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Old 08-11-2012, 02:43   #91
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Re: Never really wanted Radar or AIS until this Moment

I intend to fit basic Radar before going long term cruising as it seems the more proactive option.
AIS transceiver looks second best as it depends on the other guy doing the right thing, not always my experience.
I was out with a small fleet of cruisers heading across the Irish Sea in a thick fog, a regular feature for this area. The following boat kept giving Radar updates on the position of the nearby by trawlers , very reassuring.
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Old 08-11-2012, 03:01   #92
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Re: Never really wanted Radar or AIS until this Moment

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Originally Posted by centaur View Post
I intend to fit basic Radar before going long term cruising as it seems the more proactive option.
AIS transceiver looks second best as it depends on the other guy doing the right thing, not always my experience.
I was out with a small fleet of cruisers heading across the Irish Sea in a thick fog, a regular feature for this area. The following boat kept giving Radar updates on the position of the nearby by trawlers , very reassuring.
This post shows a fundamental mis-understanding of AIS. AIS is not a substitute for radar, nor is it second best to radar, it simply cannot be compared to radar. comparing having AIS to radar is like comparing a VHF radio to Radar, both are useful, your boat bucks and priorities determine what you install first.

AIS transponders ( and really the receive only has no future), is an identification system. which can then be used within its limitations in collision avoidance. It is not a substitute for radar.

Arguably in terms of bang for buck, I would put it above radar on the installation priority list. However I would always seek to find the boat bucks for a radar system.

AIS is an extremely useful and effective addition to a boats navigations systems. But its not a substitute for radar ( or any other piece of nav equipment).

Dave
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Old 08-11-2012, 11:08   #93
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Re: Never really wanted Radar or AIS until this Moment

I currently have a Raymarine AIS, receive only (all they had when I bought it) with a Raymarine E120 and radar. I am planning on upgrading to a Simrad NSS with AIS transducer, as well as 4G Broadband radar. I would like to keep the Raymarine as a spare system (long distance radar capacity, etc.). Would the Simrad AIS transmitter cause problems with my Raymarine system operating simultaneously?
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Old 08-11-2012, 13:02   #94
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Re: Never really wanted Radar or AIS until this Moment

Well, I have a Raymarine C-80 and an ICOM AIS with its own screen. But I have the ICOM and C-80 networked so that the alerts come up on the C-80 screen.

I just ploinked a mag mount antenna on the coach roof, about 8 feet from the C-80.

The C-80 is recessed in the cockpit coaming, 3/16" steel, but the face obviously sticks out and is in clear site of the ICOM AIS antenna.

FWIW, that is my set up. No problems. And I get up to nearly 40 miles visibility on the AIS.
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Old 08-11-2012, 13:11   #95
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Re: Never really wanted Radar or AIS until this Moment

Anyone had experience with radar/ais in small boats...about 20'?

My current project is a yawl in that size, was curious whether I could mount a small radome on the mizzen, with the display under the gunwhale in a waterproof box with a laminated glass window with a shutter; for safety, reliability & security. I was planning on a small solar panel on a kind of gimballed gunter-mount that I can hoist and orient to the sun (when it's up), so perhaps I could combine the two. The problem I see is the solar panel being radar-opaque and would have to be mounted well above it. And with ais receivers being so cheap, I would be stoopid not to mount one as well.
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Old 08-11-2012, 14:16   #96
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Re: Never really wanted Radar or AIS until this Moment

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
This post shows a fundamental mis-understanding of AIS. AIS is not a substitute for radar, nor is it second best to radar, it simply cannot be compared to radar. comparing having AIS to radar is like comparing a VHF radio to Radar, both are useful, your boat bucks and priorities determine what you install first.

AIS transponders ( and really the receive only has no future), is an identification system. which can then be used within its limitations in collision avoidance. It is not a substitute for radar.

Arguably in terms of bang for buck, I would put it above radar on the installation priority list. However I would always seek to find the boat bucks for a radar system.

AIS is an extremely useful and effective addition to a boats navigations systems. But its not a substitute for radar ( or any other piece of nav equipment).

Dave
Dave,

I would bet however your own vessel had Radar fitted before you added AIS.

Cheers
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Old 08-11-2012, 15:31   #97
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Re: Never really wanted Radar or AIS until this Moment

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I have AIS on my iPhone, boat beacon for about 10 bucks. It is handy for entering and leaving harbors like NYC. In remote areas or offshore not so much but I wanted to try before I buy. I would get radar first, then AIS. Just my .02

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I assume you know this, but just in case anyone is unclear, the iPhone AIS apps only work where you have network connectivity, AND where someone has an AIS receiver connected to the network. In remote areas or offshore it will not work at all. Some areas with network connections do not have any nearby AIS receivers plugged in. You will have AIS coverage in most large ports though.

Also.. the iphone app DOES NOT transmit to others your location. The price difference vs the value (in my opinion) of an AIS receiver vs an AIS transceiver makes the transceiver (the ability to know where other broadcasters are, in addition to letting EVERYONE listening know where you are) the clear choice....
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Old 09-11-2012, 08:58   #98
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Re: Never really wanted Radar or AIS until this Moment

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??? GPS position is a waypoint that is laid on to a chart.

I am not aware that electronic charts are more accurate than paper charts. Please enlighten me.
If the position on an electronic chart is put there by another pices of electronics there is less chance of error than position transposed "by hand" and/or from an "analog fix".....the charts re not more accurate, actually being smaller can make the less accurate.
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Old 09-11-2012, 11:36   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by downunder

Dave,

I would bet however your own vessel had Radar fitted before you added AIS.

Cheers
Yes but only because of its age. Doing it now on a limited budget that didn't stretch to radar I would definitely put Ais first ( I'd put it before a VHF to be honest )

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Old 09-11-2012, 13:38   #100
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Re: Never really wanted Radar or AIS until this Moment

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Yes but only because of its age. Doing it now on a limited budget that didn't stretch to radar I would definitely put Ais first ( I'd put it before a VHF to be honest )

Dave
They both do different things, even though they both show ships (AIS only ships w/an AIS transponder) and AIS gives more information....radar also shows land masses, ships w/out AIS, weather systems plus a few other goodies........definitely an apples and oranges with a slight crossover.
It is not a case of either/or, the more forms of "sensory input" the better. Automation can make boating safer....but over reliance on it can defeat the purpose and actually be dangerous.
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Old 09-11-2012, 15:07   #101
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Re: Never really wanted Radar or AIS until this Moment

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Originally Posted by micah719 View Post
Anyone had experience with radar/ais in small boats...about 20'?

My current project is a yawl in that size, was curious whether I could mount a small radome on the mizzen, with the display under the gunwhale in a waterproof box with a laminated glass window with a shutter; for safety, reliability & security. I was planning on a small solar panel on a kind of gimballed gunter-mount that I can hoist and orient to the sun (when it's up), so perhaps I could combine the two. The problem I see is the solar panel being radar-opaque and would have to be mounted well above it. And with ais receivers being so cheap, I would be stoopid not to mount one as well.
G'DAy Micah,

I've never seen a radar on such a small boat, but that does not rule out having one.

A couple of issues that influence your decision:

The mizzen mast on such a small yawl will likely be pretty small. The physical difficulties of actually mounting even a small radome on it, as well as the additional loading from its mass must be considered. Might be ok, but have a good engineering look at the installation before drilling holes!

Putting the display behind a window has a real problem in that one must be able to push buttons and turn knobs on teh display unit FREQUENTLY in normal radar usage. In my experience (Furuno and Anritsu radars) the so called automatic gain and sea clutter adjustments are not very good, so manual adjustment (as well as range changes) are needed.

Once you have sailed with radar you will wonder how you ever got along without it!

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 09-11-2012, 17:54   #102
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Re: Never really wanted Radar or AIS until this Moment

I have installed Simrad Broadband radars on a number of small boats, and I believe it to be a terrific addition. The Broadband uses less power in transmission mode than any other radar does in standby. Further, there is no radiation hazard since it doesn't use microwaves. Third, it doesn't have the "doughnut hole" of missed targets at close range that traditional radars present. I will be adding it to my existing electronics systems before I go cruising. Simrad also has a terrific sounder that shows virtual photos of the bottom, called Structure Scan side scan sonar. Go look at it in an electronics store. Amazing.
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Old 09-11-2012, 18:47   #103
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Re: Never really wanted Radar or AIS until this Moment

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I have installed Simrad Broadband radars on a number of small boats, and I believe it to be a terrific addition. The Broadband uses less power in transmission mode than any other radar does in standby. Further, there is no radiation hazard since it doesn't use microwaves. Third, it doesn't have the "doughnut hole" of missed targets at close range that traditional radars present. I will be adding it to my existing electronics systems before I go cruising. Simrad also has a terrific sounder that shows virtual photos of the bottom, called Structure Scan side scan sonar. Go look at it in an electronics store. Amazing.
yes of course, but the power comsumption is lower, for example 42Watts for a furuno closed dome, versus 21W for the 4G , note quite as low as you stated.

Yes theres no magnetron mind you , its still emits in the X-band, so it does use microwaves. Not sure about the doughnut hole you mentioned thats more a trade off of vertical beam width, and side lobes. Its does suffer at detecting long range targets and has great trouble seeing water droplets.

Certainly FMCW has a place in "ranged detection". Im just waiting for synthesised aperture and electronically steered antennas to propagate down from the military. !!

Of course were all sailing self contained, reparable vessels capable of self sufficiency and self survival , absolutely

Dave
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