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Old 06-11-2012, 18:21   #76
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Re: Never really wanted Radar or AIS until this Moment

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Originally Posted by sf-robert View Post
My biggest problem with AIS - the large number of targets that show up on SF Bay - even more cluttered with recreational vessels adding the transmit function.
It's interesting, isn't it -- we are always pointing out that many vessels don't transmit AIS, but then we complain when too many of them do. I guess we can't win!

AIS is definitely lots of fun. From my house I've tracked the Maltese Falcon as she approached Drake's Bay (coming in from Hawaii -- we drove out to see her sail into Drake's), I've tracked the Bounty (yes, the one that just sunk) as she was motoring north and turned around to wait out the bad conditions, Steve Dashew's "Windhorse" as she pulled into Bodega Bay, and the mobile radar platform "SBX-1" when it was parked 50 miles offshore for a couple of weeks.
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Old 06-11-2012, 18:47   #77
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Re: Never really wanted Radar or AIS until this Moment

I work on the SF Bay. I prefer having AIS over not having it. With AIS I can call other vessels by their name to make passing arrangements. You know how your ears perk up when you hear the name of your vessel called on the radio, less so when someone is making a location description This beats saying " Upbound ferry at The Brothers, port to port?" Other vessels and Vessel Traffic also know which of those boats are me and know my status. VTS also has an easier and more precise job with AIS.

Eventually all vessels of any size are going to need an AIS transceiver, it has become such an important safety device. Not having one will eventually be considered irresponsible. That's the way it is going.
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Old 06-11-2012, 18:59   #78
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Re: Never really wanted Radar or AIS until this Moment

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I work on the SF Bay. I prefer having AIS over not having it. With AIS I can call other vessels by their name to make passing arrangements. You know how your ears perk up when you hear the name of your vessel called on the radio, less so when someone is making a location description This beats saying " Upbound ferry at The Brothers, port to port?" Other vessels and Vessel Traffic also know which of those boats are me and know my status. VTS also has an easier and more precise job with AIS.

Eventually all vessels of any size are going to need an AIS transceiver, it has become such an important safety device. Not having one will eventually be considered irresponsible. That's the way it is going.
I agree absolutely, but them you already have Radar.
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Old 06-11-2012, 19:02   #79
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I sailed I fog in sf bay with nothing and suffered the anxiety of it. My current vessel has radar. I have sailed nights into strange harbors and across various bodies of water in shipping lanes at times. I wouldn't do those feats without it. I have AIS on my iPhone, boat beacon for about 10 bucks. It is handy for entering and leaving harbors like NYC. In remote areas or offshore not so much but I wanted to try before I buy. I would get radar first, then AIS. Just my .02
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Old 06-11-2012, 19:53   #80
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Re: Never really wanted Radar or AIS until this Moment

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I have AIS on my iPhone, boat beacon for about 10 bucks. It is handy for entering and leaving harbors like NYC. In remote areas or offshore not so much but I wanted to try before I buy. I would get radar first, then AIS. Just my .02
I assume you know this, but just in case anyone is unclear, the iPhone AIS apps only work where you have network connectivity, AND where someone has an AIS receiver connected to the network. In remote areas or offshore it will not work at all. Some areas with network connections do not have any nearby AIS receivers plugged in. You will have AIS coverage in most large ports though.
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Old 06-11-2012, 20:16   #81
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Re: Never really wanted Radar or AIS until this Moment

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That Condor ferry was going 40 knots, he can't hear fog signals over the engines and - as we saw in the report from the Ouzo collision - yacht radar reflectors are just about worthless. But he does have AIS
Examination of the Condor's Vessel Data Recorder showed a decent or better return for the fishing boat for the entire time it was within range. Bridge Voice recorder showed that the lookouts were chitchatting rather than paying attention to the radar, and the skipper had elected to turn off the fog horn because it 'disturbed' the bridge crew despite their being sealed in a completely enclosed bridge. There has been talk of requiring a Sterile Bridge similar to aviation's Sterile Cockpit Rule when high speed ferries are proceeding limited visibility.

If they are not watching the radar they aren't going to be paying attention to the AIS either.

Argument can be made that they should have been proceeding at a slower rate, and that someone should have been detailed to go forward and listen for fog signals, though, in this case the fishing vessel wasn't sounding either.
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Old 06-11-2012, 21:14   #82
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Re: Never really wanted Radar or AIS until this Moment

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Where do you sail, in terms of home waters?
Morro Bay for over 30 yrs. Regular trips to Channel Islands and Big Sur (surf and fish), Monterey and occasional forays into Santa Cruz or Moss. Several big trips to Oregon, WA, and beyond. As far south as Cabo and the Sea of Cortez. Not much into racing other than small cats (H, P, N, T).

For 15 months now I am in SoCal caring for dear mother. Infrequently out of Dana and Newport these days. Looking to buy cruising cat by June 2013...ok, by Oct.
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Old 06-11-2012, 21:18   #83
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Re: Never really wanted Radar or AIS until this Moment

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Examination of the Condor's Vessel Data Recorder showed a decent or better return for the fishing boat for the entire time it was within range. Bridge Voice recorder showed that the lookouts were chitchatting rather than paying attention to the radar, and the skipper had elected to turn off the fog horn because it 'disturbed' the bridge crew despite their being sealed in a completely enclosed bridge. There has been talk of requiring a Sterile Bridge similar to aviation's Sterile Cockpit Rule when high speed ferries are proceeding limited visibility.

If they are not watching the radar they aren't going to be paying attention to the AIS either.

Argument can be made that they should have been proceeding at a slower rate, and that someone should have been detailed to go forward and listen for fog signals, though, in this case the fishing vessel wasn't sounding either.
That is extremely messed up although it presents a good object lesson. Having the equipment and knowing how to use it but not using it is perhaps worse than having the equipment and not knowing how to use it. Which itself is worse than not having the equipment.

See, having the equipment can lead to complacency. Complacency is known to be a killer.
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Old 07-11-2012, 06:07   #84
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Re: Never really wanted Radar or AIS until this Moment

I disagree that they would have turned off AIS. Perhaps they would, but AIS will likely provide fewer false returns, and gives better predictability. Thus it is more likely they would have it on and alarmed, but the small boat needs a transceiver.

I asked a fisherman why no AIS? "I don't want me mates to know where I am, or me Wife."

Too many returns is a problem, and it can drive you nuts in a small harbor. But it is a price I am willing to pay for my overall security.

I won't go on any more about the advantages of having a transponder, suffice it to say I think it's very, very worthwhile. And interesting.
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Old 07-11-2012, 06:35   #85
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Re: Never really wanted Radar or AIS until this Moment

fishermen do not want their secret fish hole exposed--they are possessive of those places and do not wish to share- they will not be acquiring any devices that rat their places out any time soon. keep eyes open for them. some do not even show on radar. fun in dawn and dusk, here in mexico----
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Old 07-11-2012, 06:53   #86
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Re: Never really wanted Radar or AIS until this Moment

Use your nav. lights, sound your horn, deploy a radar reflector and keep tour eyes and ears open. Except for the radar ref.,these are required by international and inland COLREG rules. Avoiding fog is the prudent thing to do just like avoiding other adverse weather situations but just like anything else is sometimes unavoidable. Ask another radar equipped vessel to track your boat on his radar and adjust your image accordingly. Don't count on other boats to have radar. If you really want to get nervous, think about all the auto pilots in use while the helmsman is making coffee, using the head, cutting bait or just taking a short snooze. Drive defensively.
To answer your original question, until everything else has AIS, Radar trumps AIS.
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Old 07-11-2012, 12:17   #87
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Re: Never really wanted Radar or AIS until this Moment

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I disagree that they would have turned off AIS. Perhaps they would, but AIS will likely provide fewer false returns, and gives better predictability. Thus it is more likely they would have it on and alarmed, but the small boat needs a transceiver.
I didn't say they would have turned it off, I said that if they wouldn't have been paying attention to it.
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Old 07-11-2012, 19:29   #88
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Re: Never really wanted Radar or AIS until this Moment

One thing that is apparent here is this talk of hailing the merchant vessel. Well, from experience I have found it is far less stressful to not make contat with certain vessels. Truth be told I would much rather avoid any communication with a number of so-called captains of various lines.

24 miles off the coast just north of Monterey Bay I had a LPG carrier stop making way when 2 nm upwind of me in a breeze at evening twilight. He calls us, Vessel to port side, 2 miles, which way to Slan Flansicko? Forget him, besides we were to his stbd.

That is only one of many such stories involving steamers.
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Old 07-11-2012, 19:42   #89
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Re: Never really wanted Radar or AIS until this Moment

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GPS is only so accurate.
The problem is that many (most?) charts aren't nearly as accurate as GPS.
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Old 07-11-2012, 23:05   #90
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Re: Never really wanted Radar or AIS until this Moment

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The problem is that many (most?) charts aren't nearly as accurate as GPS.
??? GPS position is a waypoint that is laid on to a chart.

I am not aware that electronic charts are more accurate than paper charts. Please enlighten me.
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