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Old 28-10-2012, 10:55   #16
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Re: Navionics - why?

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Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
I think $1000 for the world sounds like a very good deal. Am planning my dream cruise to Europe, the Med and some of the canals so started researching charts. Started at dealers for the British Admiralty charts and very quickly added up to $5-$6000 for coastal and harbor charts and I was just getting started. Really, if you planned a European cruise to include Ireland and the British Isles, a little of Scandinavia, down the Atlantic coast to Gibraltar and most of the Med to Greece you could spend $10-$15,000 for a complete set of charts. Ridiculous!!!

So, as much as I would hate to rely on a single source for navigation and that source not exactly the sturdiest or most useful device for the job, I think at this time the Navionics charts for an iPad is the affordable option. Maybe buy 4-5 iPads for backups.

Is there a way to output the video signal of an iPad to an external display of some sort? I have a daylight viewable VGA monitor I plan to use in the cockpit but don't know how to interface that to an iPad.
I would not rely on one source of electronic navigation. Look at the open CPN forums and cheap or free charts are available for most of the word.

The Navionics licence for iPad allows for maps on 2 iPads for the one royalty fee.
Say 2 iPads a couple of old PCs with an extra one stored in a faraday cage plus some pilot books/ cruising guides and you have the basis for a reasonably stable reliable world wide navigation system for very low cost (at least if you need the iPads anyway)
Technology is improving where this can integrated with a marine system that will display radar and AIS for considerably extra cost.
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Old 28-10-2012, 12:19   #17
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Re: Navionics - why?

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
I would not rely on one source of electronic navigation. Look at the open CPN forums and cheap or free charts are available for most of the word.

The Navionics licence for iPad allows for maps on 2 iPads for the one royalty fee.
Say 2 iPads a couple of old PCs with an extra one stored in a faraday cage plus some pilot books/ cruising guides and you have the basis for a reasonably stable reliable world wide navigation system for very low cost (at least if you need the iPads anyway)
Technology is improving where this can integrated with a marine system that will display radar and AIS for considerably extra cost.
All the above is more or less my current plan, barring any new breakthroughs in nav software, like the Open CPN radar (Yea!!).

So paper charts for the ocean crossing and approaches, pilot books and guides for the close in stuff and whatever nav software is the best option when the time comes.

Which brings up a question. What might be the downside to using guidebooks for the harbors and such instead of spending hundreds on multiple small scale charts (ignoring for the time being whether the charts would be paper or electronic)? What are the limitations on that approach for cruising Europe? I did this for years in the Bahamas, using large scale charts for sailing island to island and guidebooks for everything close in.
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Old 28-10-2012, 12:55   #18
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Re: Navionics - why?

Guide books / pilot books / cruising guides often have the best "maps" of anchorages. However some of the ideal anchorages are not listed in these guides. If the wind is strong, or the season is busy often the best spots are found by with lots of maps and a bit of research. Multiple chart sources are often a help.
Even with some well established anchorages in out of the way places some maps are woefully inaccurate and several sources of mapping information are are invaluable in deciding where to anchor for the night.
Given the low cost of several alternative electronic systems it is sensible to have several sources of information.
Unfortunately the pilot books and cruising guides can be very expensive for a cruising sailor that only spends a short time in each location, but the information is generally worth the cost.

In the area I am in at the moment I have 3 cruising guides/ pilot books, 4 types of electronic maps, google earth and some other Internet resources and a few of paper charts.
Surprisingly this information from these conflicting sources can be very different, particularly away from well established areas that large ships might use.
In general I like to review most of these resources when making a passage plan and particularly deciding on a suitable anchorage at the end of the sail.
Some of the most useful resources, like google earth, are rarely considered, but can be the most useful.

For example finding weed free areas to anchor in the Med google earth is best resource, followed by pilot books. Charts are of very limited value.
There is a perception on these forums that these "unofficial, unauthorised" sources are to avoided, but they are used frequently and with good effect by cruising sailors worldwide.
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Old 28-10-2012, 13:25   #19
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Re: Navionics - why?

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
I would not rely on one source of electronic navigation. Look at the open CPN forums and cheap or free charts are available for most of the word.

The Navionics licence for iPad allows for maps on 2 iPads for the one royalty fee.
Say 2 iPads a couple of old PCs with an extra one stored in a faraday cage plus some pilot books/ cruising guides and you have the basis for a reasonably stable reliable world wide navigation system for very low cost (at least if you need the iPads anyway)
Technology is improving where this can integrated with a marine system that will display radar and AIS for considerably extra cost.
I have heard both good and bad about OpenCPN.

Are you sure - really - that the charts for worlwide coverage are cheap or free with OpenCPN? That sounds good if true - and I will definitely consider that nav programme for a laptop.

Combine that with a couple Ipads and couple handheld GPS units as backup - then I am set.
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Old 28-10-2012, 14:28   #20
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Re: Navionics - why?

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I have heard both good and bad about OpenCPN.

Are you sure - really - that the charts for worlwide coverage are cheap or free with OpenCPN? That sounds good if true - and I will definitely consider that nav programme for a laptop.

Combine that with a couple Ipads and couple handheld GPS units as backup - then I am set.
Open CPN is just the program to host the maps. The maps need too be sourced separately. If you go to open CPN forum there is a lot of information where the maps can be found for your region, or where you intend to sail.
There are some maps that are used by used by cruising sailors that have dubious copywrite, but there are plenty of free, entirely legal maps.
The same is true for Maxsea although there is more "questionable" material.
Electronic maps cost almost nothing to distribute and government are learning that free electronic maps can be more cost effective than other navaids.

The era of cheap, or free electronic navigation maps is rapidly approaching and many would say its already here.
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Old 28-10-2012, 20:13   #21
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Re: Navionics - Why?

I always love the, "Why does X cost Y" threads...

X always costs Y because Z will pay and A makes a profit. If A doesn't make a profit A goes out of business and B will take over. If A and B are in business at the same time A and B will eventually float a price that Z must pay if A and B are to stay in business.

When the "utility" (= consumer value) of the product is similar and the price of A is drastically out of touch with B, A may not be in business long.

Every single conversation I have had on business modeling in the last 10-15 years is about monetizing information and data. Selling hardware is a widget game and very expensive to play in.

Selling data streams that one owns is magical. Every single strategy for owning data streams pisses off consumers, starting with the 99 cent mp3 recording.
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Old 28-10-2012, 20:44   #22
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Re: Navionics - why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
Guide books / pilot books / cruising guides often have the best "maps" of anchorages. However some of the ideal anchorages are not listed in these guides. If the wind is strong, or the season is busy often the best spots are found by with lots of maps and a bit of research. Multiple chart sources are often a help.
Even with some well established anchorages in out of the way places some maps are woefully inaccurate and several sources of mapping information are are invaluable in deciding where to anchor for the night.
Given the low cost of several alternative electronic systems it is sensible to have several sources of information.
Unfortunately the pilot books and cruising guides can be very expensive for a cruising sailor that only spends a short time in each location, but the information is generally worth the cost.

In the area I am in at the moment I have 3 cruising guides/ pilot books, 4 types of electronic maps, google earth and some other Internet resources and a few of paper charts.
Surprisingly this information from these conflicting sources can be very different, particularly away from well established areas that large ships might use.
In general I like to review most of these resources when making a passage plan and particularly deciding on a suitable anchorage at the end of the sail.
Some of the most useful resources, like google earth, are rarely considered, but can be the most useful.

For example finding weed free areas to anchor in the Med google earth is best resource, followed by pilot books. Charts are of very limited value.
There is a perception on these forums that these "unofficial, unauthorised" sources are to avoided, but they are used frequently and with good effect by cruising sailors worldwide.
Back in the dark ages, before internet and google earth, I spent a couple of years cruising the Bahamas. Used to find some great places to anchor by poking around the spots that didn't show any detail in the charts and guidebooks. Sounds like even in the Med that might work as well.
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Old 28-10-2012, 22:19   #23
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Re: Navionics - why?

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Is there a way to output the video signal of an iPad to an external display of some sort? I have a daylight viewable VGA monitor I plan to use in the cockpit but don't know how to interface that to an iPad.
Yes, it's called Apple TV. A little black box that takes your iPad WIFI and displays on a TV (not sure of VGA though - may work). TV's are cheap if it doesn't work on VGA monitor!
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Old 28-10-2012, 22:54   #24
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Re: Navionics - why?

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Originally Posted by skipmac View Post

Is there a way to output the video signal of an iPad to an external display of some sort? I have a daylight viewable VGA monitor I plan to use in the cockpit but don't know how to interface that to an iPad.
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Yes, it's called Apple TV. A little black box that takes your iPad WIFI and displays on a TV (not sure of VGA though - may work). TV's are cheap if it doesn't work on VGA monitor!
You don't need Apple TV. Just the VGA adapter and iPad 2 or later...

Apple 30-pin to VGA Adapter - Apple Store (U.S.)

I have not used this BTW but it seems pretty straightforward.

I do have the iPad component video cable to stream to televisions.
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Old 28-10-2012, 23:02   #25
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Re: Navionics - why?

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You don't need Apple TV. Just the VGA adapter and iPad 2 or later...

Apple 30-pin to VGA Adapter - Apple Store (U.S.)

I have not used this BTW but it seems pretty straightforward.

I do have the iPad component video cable to stream to televisions.
At the risk of getting off topic...........I'd be careful with the 30 pin - VGA cable as the feedback suggests it only plays video's & slideshows and is problematic with apps and mirroring. May or may not work.
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Old 28-10-2012, 23:07   #26
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We have a TEAC 12 volt TV on board which has a HDMI input. The Ipad accessory HDMI cable attaches directly and we can watch anything showing on the Ipad directly on the TV as a mirror image.
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Old 29-10-2012, 07:31   #27
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Re: Navionics - Why?

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X always costs Y because Z will pay and A makes a profit.
Exactly. This is simple supply and demand. It's what the market will bear. Economics at its most basic. Amazing how many people just don't "get it," though, when they are the buyer.

(Though EVERYONE "gets it" when they are the seller!)
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Old 29-10-2012, 07:49   #28
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Re: Navionics - Why?

I am informed that the difference between the Navionics for Ipad and the Navionics for a chartplotter (the same is true for C-Map), is that the Navionics for the chartplotters has many more "layers", meaning as you zoom in closer, the incremental increase in the zoom is much less than on the Ipad. Using the Ipad , the zoom will be jerky and you will end up zooming in/out much more often.

The best comparison would be to compare C-map NT with the newest C-Map max 4 D. The issue is similar in that the new C-Map has many more layers.

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Old 29-10-2012, 08:16   #29
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Re: Navionics - why?

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I sometimes question the supposed profit maximization formulas that the chart companies use. I think they have priced much of their products out of the market. If they were to lower prices enough, I think that they would make more $$$. It seems that the concept of the velocity of money is unknown to them. . . .
Chris Chrtis
Actually there was an outfit called "Softcharts" that did just that - they priced their marine charts below the prices of "Maptech/BSB" and got all my business for awhile. And then "Maptech" noticed - - and bought out "Softchart" and shut it down. Welcome to the capitalist world . . .
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Old 29-10-2012, 10:45   #30
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Re: Navionics - why?

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Yes, it's called Apple TV. A little black box that takes your iPad WIFI and displays on a TV (not sure of VGA though - may work). TV's are cheap if it doesn't work on VGA monitor!
Thanks. Checked out the Apple TV and looks like it only outputs HDMI. But for another $30-$40 you can get an HDMI to VGA converter. Would want to stick with the VGA because I have a 13" direct sunlight viewable VGA monitor that I plan to use in the cockpit. Haven't found any TVs that you can see in direct sun.
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