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Old 17-11-2014, 15:18   #31
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Re: Navionics pull software from Google Play Store?

My mistake..gotta download the Boating USA app

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Old 17-11-2014, 15:32   #32
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Re: Navionics pull software from Google Play Store?

Absolutely, there is a difference in screen technologies between the two, but (for how and where I live) the difference is manageable.

In my job (as a mapper) we use tablets for field work all the time. With the right screen protector - and in my latitudes - an iPad is just fine in the sun. But everything in life is a compromise! That very readable screen on my Standard Horizon chartplotter was scratched within a month of buying it from someone wiping spray off with their t-shirt (certainly wasn't me ). Also last year I noticed that the sun and salt spray were beginning to etch the finish.


Apologies for driving the scope creep on this thread......
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Old 17-11-2014, 15:56   #33
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Re: Navionics pull software from Google Play Store?

Having used an iPad mini side by side with different chart plotters on different boats since the day the iPad mini came out, the screen is its only weak point.

The screen, as has been pointed out, is manageable, and the expanded capabilities of the iPad compared to a plotter make the plotter look like a retarded cousin, every time.

The trade off is a no-brainer.

When you get the iPad, the first thing to do is make sure it doesn't have any Navionics products on it.
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Old 18-11-2014, 06:50   #34
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Re: Navionics pull software from Google Play Store?

Navionics’ founder Giuseppe Carnevali tells his view on the safety of electronic charts.

"By common practice a product is considered very good when it has less than 1% failure rate, which means 99% accuracy.
A product with 99.999% accuracy is considered closer to science fiction than to reality.
Yet with a database (like Navionics’) that contains over a billion objects such as rocks, navigation aids, wrecks etc, 99.999% accuracy still leaves room for 10,000 errors!
No chart, whether made by Navionics or its competitors or any Hydrographic Office, can avoid this mathematical rule".

With 1% failurerate giving 10.000.000 faults, it will take one year every day to find and correct 27.000 faults each day. plus faults they made in new updates.
It΄s an unrealistic job.
They must buy chart data from the officiel authorities for each countrys chart and notice to mariners, instead of selling 20 years old spagettichart produced in from India.
Additional there is no defined SCAMIN for commercial yachtsman products.
Especially users of Navionics are constantly running in troubles with zooming faults.

For the future buy only officiel and automatic updated products.

Plotterproducers without SENC approved from goverments throu a approved classificationcompany are outdated.

Harding
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Old 18-11-2014, 11:43   #35
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Re: Navionics pull software from Google Play Store?

Just and FYI for people using tablets...

There are a myriad of sun shades on the market for tablets of all sizes. They really help with making the tablet view able in bright sunlight. I first discovered them while flying RC Aircraft in FPV.
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Old 18-11-2014, 12:30   #36
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Re: Navionics pull software from Google Play Store?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harding View Post
Additional there is no defined SCAMIN for commercial yachtsman products.
Especially users of Navionics are constantly running in troubles with zooming faults.

For the future buy only officiel and automatic updated products.

Plotterproducers without SENC approved from goverments throu a approved classificationcompany are outdated.

Harding
Harding,

at OpenCPN and the S-63 plug-in we are offering the ability to use the latest official vector charts. Some are great but you will find areas as well where these charts are far from perfect.
But in this cases the Garmins, Navionics, C-Maps and etc aren't any better.
Official charts are expensive for the leisure (and non BIG commercial) market.

If this does not change your call for "officially approved charts and systems" would lead to have to install SOLAS equipment. No-Go.

This is a field to be discussed - how can a PC or an Android or I-xx system be homologated for example? Or have it to be homologated?? Minimum requirements? Minimum failure tolerance?

Some nm to go ....
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Old 18-11-2014, 12:44   #37
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Re: Navionics pull software from Google Play Store?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pete33458 View Post
My LG G3 (Android) just automatically updated Navionics USA, so I guess there is something new out there. Looks the same as my old app (which I declined all the invitations to update). pete
Yes, things look good! I ran it this morning (from my desk) for about an hour, installed some maps for a new area, and tested the features a bit. No crashing and the new maps seem fine.
I noticed in the "Charts and Upgrades" menu that it reads "353 Days Left" on my USA and Canada subscription. Odd, since I bought the maps last summer, so if there is a 1 year free update period I should be further along than 12 days....
I hadn't originally thought about what would happen at the end of the 1 year....hopefully it is JUST updates that it disallows, and not simply accessing the maps already downloaded. And come to think of it, I guess you would want to download all the geographic area you'd possibly ever need right before that subscription expires. Even though you technically "pay for the 2014 edition" of the maps, you probably wouldn't be able to get them once you expired. And $50 is too much for me to spend annually. Maybe every 3rd year....

Also saw that Nav module, but I'll wait until I'm on the water to try it out.
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Old 18-11-2014, 15:33   #38
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Re: Navionics pull software from Google Play Store?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elysium View Post
Also saw that Nav module, but I'll wait until I'm on the water to try it out.
I wouldn't wait.

Plan a route now and see how to create/edit/delete waypoints (much better than the old way of creating routes) and look at the information available about the legs.

Also tap on the various information panels and see how they work.

Then when you get on the water, you can see what happens when you are following the route without wasting a lot of time finding out how it all works
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Old 18-11-2014, 15:53   #39
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Re: Navionics pull software from Google Play Store?

Tried out the Nav Module on the water recently. Signicant enhancement over the total lack of nav functionality before, but still pretty basic, hopefully they will continue to add features.
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Old 19-11-2014, 08:52   #40
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Re: Navionics pull software from Google Play Store?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bcn View Post
Harding,

at OpenCPN and the S-63 plug-in we are offering the ability to use the latest official vector charts. Some are great but you will find areas as well where these charts are far from perfect.
But in this cases the Garmins, Navionics, C-Maps and etc aren't any better.
Official charts are expensive for the leisure (and non BIG commercial) market.

If this does not change your call for "officially approved charts and systems" would lead to have to install SOLAS equipment. No-Go.

This is a field to be discussed - how can a PC or an Android or I-xx system be homologated for example? Or have it to be homologated?? Minimum requirements? Minimum failure tolerance?

Some nm to go ....
BCN

OpenCpn was a good program, an eye opener.
I install charts form many diff. nav. systems in the chart dirictory.
By scrolling between charts it was easy to see all the diffs. in the Chatografi, lack of info and faults in commercial charts, compare with the official chart from same the year. include wrong SCAMIN functionality for vector charts.
Those indications was supportet by the Swedish magasin called Pε Kryds, produced by Krysserklubben and also by the assurance Company Alandia.
They had made a lot of investigations in Commercial plotterproducts and charts in use.

IMO recommends a Danish strategy for e-Navigation and Action Plan. The Danish strategy to create conditions for a more efficient exchange of information relevant to safe navigation and efficient transport and logistics in the Danish ships, waters and ports as well as for Danish ships globally.
Denmark has leadership for e-navigation.
That lead to establishment of minimum requirements to use navigation software and hardware, with official digital chart data, forward can be recommended for use as a primary means of navigation at sea by recreational boaters, with ref. to the international standard IEC 62376.

All Commercial producers/maufacors was invited to participate. Only one could meet the IEC 62376 standard.
They made at testsetup and sailors i Sweden and Denmark was invited to test the product over a season. It was a combination using the new product and updating the official charts every week.
A lot of tests and reports was made.

Imagine if you could receive all relevant forecasts for current, wind, waves and water levels on your route at once? And view the information from a navigation warning on the position warning belong to?

Thats possible in the product we tested it was Seapilot.

The aothorities is in the process of applying for EU funds to create a platform on the Internet - that is, independently and without the ECDISS - where all the relevant information can be retrieved.
That the sailors could avail of with: navigation warnings, weather reports, information on ports and many other details that are continually updated

Danish Maritime Authority in DK is an international leader along with Norway, Sweden and Korea.
Korea has allocated 200 mil. US $ for development. It gives an idea of how large equipment manufacturers such. Hyundai expects the market will be.

Seapilot uses vectorized S-57 chart data from National Maritime Administrations. The chart presentation is based on professional standards for ECDIS (Electronic Chart Display and Information System).
Seapilot spec.:
•Functions in details:
•Positioning via GPS
•Visualization of S-57 chart data from National Maritime Administrations
•AIS data from National Maritime Administrations via Internet (3G or WLAN)
•Course and speed vector for AIS targets
•AIS weather data in real time from national weather stations - SWE
•Autonomous navigation - charts (In-App-purchase) downloaded to your device
•Rapid chart management
•Easy return to own position
•Option of tracking your own boat on the chart
•Displays position, course and speed
•Man Overboard function
•Display settings for day, dawn/dusk and night
•Routes/waypoints (Export/Import in GPX-format, save to list)
•Past track (Export/Import in GPX-format, save to list)
•Plotting/marking objects (Export/Import in GPX-format, save to list)
•Electronic bearing and range marker from own vessel
•True Motion with North Up chart orientation
•Chart object search
•Facebook connection to friends
•AIS target search
•Setting of safety contour (2, 3, 6, 10 and 15 meters)
•Hide/show tool bar
•High definition (HD)
•World chart for rough overview/orientation
•NMEA-0183 interface for connecting external GPS/AIS via WIFI
•In-App Purchase
•National S-57 chart data for 14 countries, more in development
•Swedish large scale, high detailed charts from Hydrographica
•Coastal Weather Forecasts for 5 days
Updates for one year 2015, for ipad.
•Belgien 165,- DKR
•Germany 259,- DKR
•Denmark 549,- DKR
•Estonia 429,- DKR
•Finland 259,- DKR
•France 849,- DKR
•Great Britain 265,- DKR
•Ireland 265,- DKR
•Iceland 285,- DKR
•Latvia 379,- DKR
•Netherlands 209,- DKR
•Norway 429,- DKR
•Sweden 259,- DKR
All functions included +
•Weather 49,- DKR
Seapilot has opened for the sale of their products to the US and the rest of North America.
The new version is called SeaPilot 3.7 MarineCharting App (US version).
The cards are in S-57 format. Weather Info from MeteoGroup, AIS, NMEA, marks / Routes, Import / Export.
Short rates. year, $ 13.90 east / west, Great Lakes $ 38.99. Weather $ 9.99, AIS, $ 19.99, NMEA Data Import / Export, Marks and routes, each $ 13.99.
Its a new beginning of navigation for us.
The road back to the sonar with a red dot moving around a dial, is as long as the road back to the hollowed-out tree trunk.
Harding
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Old 19-11-2014, 09:44   #41
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Re: Navionics pull software from Google Play Store?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harding View Post
BCN

Those indications was supportet by the Swedish magasin called Pε Kryds, produced by Krysserklubben and also by the assurance Company Alandia.
They had made a lot of investigations in Commercial plotterproducts and charts in use.
I would be interested to learn more about this. Are the findings available (in English perhaps)?

Quote:
IMO recommends a Danish strategy for e-Navigation and Action Plan. The Danish strategy to create conditions for a more efficient exchange of information relevant to safe navigation and efficient transport and logistics in the Danish ships, waters and ports as well as for Danish ships globally.
Denmark has leadership for e-navigation.
That lead to establishment of minimum requirements to use navigation software and hardware, with official digital chart data, forward can be recommended for use as a primary means of navigation at sea by recreational boaters, with ref. to the international standard IEC 62376.

All Commercial producers/maufacors was invited to participate. Only one could meet the IEC 62376 standard.
It looks that the standard and the related RTCM 10900.5, RTCM Standard for Electronic Chart Systems (ECS) are not in public domain - you have to pay if you want to learn what they are about. 60$
Perhaps common when you just ask Commercial producers.

Are the weather and AIS data via Wifi documented and is there access for third parties?

I wonder what it would take to make OpenCPN compliant.
Perhaps it is already, but as the standard is not in public domain.....

Quote:

They made at testsetup and sailors i Sweden and Denmark was invited to test the product over a season. It was a combination using the new product and updating the official charts every week.
A lot of tests and reports was made.
Are these reports available? In English perhaps?


Quote:
Seapilot uses vectorized S-57 chart data from National Maritime Administrations. The chart presentation is based on professional standards for ECDIS (Electronic Chart Display and Information System).
I would expect that the underlying charts or cell are in S-57 format and the data you receive are in a private eSENC format, so only usable with Seapilot on a specific hardware (iPad).

So we have something like OpenCPN -S-63/S-57- compliant on an iPAD

Do you know where the charts are sourced from?

Info: 7,50 Dkr = aprox 1€

Would be interested to learn more especially in the context of ENCs as primary media of navigation for Non-SOLAS vessels.
Any contacts? If you think it would be more adequate PM me.

Hubert
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Old 19-11-2014, 14:54   #42
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Re: Navionics pull software from Google Play Store?

Harding-
The gentlemen from Navionics seems either confused, or perhaps, mistranslated.
""By common practice a product is considered very good when it has less than 1% failure rate, "
Let's throw out a number, without citing any source for it? That 1% failure rate is considered good by who? Him? Would you accept 1% of jet airfract, or passenger cars, spontaneously combusting as good? Would you accept a 1% death rate from hospital acquired diseases as "good" ?
This sounds like a straw man, to me.

"which means 99% accuracy."
Which means what? How does a failure rate all of a sudden become "accuracy" ? The two are totally different. I feel like I'm hearing a carnival barker tell me all about how easy it will be to win a prize.

"A product with 99.999% accuracy is considered closer to science fiction than to reality."
Ah, no actually. Whether one is dealing with accuracy, or failure rates, "five nines" "six nines" and even "nine nines" are all considered normal in different industries. They are not closer to science fiction, they are simple and longstanding realities in some businesses and activities.

In the "marine charting" businesses, pretty much all of the baseline information comes from government hydrographic offices. If an individual vendor *simply* copies that information without adding any errors, they're doing a "perfect" job. They can't do any better than 100% fidelity to the source data. But they can easily perform at 100%.
As to the source data itself, well? Even the USN sometimes claims (claims) they've run a submarine into a new and uncharted mountain, sure. That's why mariners are encouraged to report errors and submit hydrographic information when it is available.

The old AT&T/Western Electric phone system in the US was a marvel to the world, because it simply worked "all" the time. You could hammer nails with the basic black rotary WE phones and a 20-year old phone was common. You picked up the handset and got dialtone "every" minute of every day all year long, for years at a stretch.

Today's cell phone systems? "Can you hear me now?!" is accepted as normal. Nowhere near five nines, let alone nine nines, in any way.

But for resellers (really) of government charting information? One would think a 100% accuracy and reliability rate would be a fairly easy target to aim for. Not in the source data, because they're not in control of that. But in faithfully presenting that data.
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Old 19-11-2014, 15:22   #43
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Re: Navionics pull software from Google Play Store?

Exactly!

Edit the chart, mess with the data, assume responsibility.

And no one messes with the chart more than Navionics, and no one introduces more errors than Navionics.

What astonishes me is that when an error is brought to their attention, rather than go back to the source and get the new version of the chart from NOAA, they update their version of the chart that is ten years old (or more).

I called them and told them that a light that they had on their chart had been removed more than ten years ago. They responded by removing the magenta exclamation mark for the light, but they left the line of text that described the light characteristics.
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Old 19-11-2014, 15:23   #44
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Re: Navionics pull software from Google Play Store?

Hellosailor: as a scientist, I agree 100% (not 99.99999% though). I was going to respond to that message but I decided it was too complicated. You said it well.

Error, accuracy, and other measures of perfection and imperfection only apply when there is uncertainty. Once certainty has been established (for instance, the lat/lon of a rock), there is no error. There may still be error in the ability of a user to detect the location accurately, but not in the location itself.

Pete
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Old 19-11-2014, 18:04   #45
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Re: Navionics pull software from Google Play Store?

Remember... It not just rocks.. Its sandbars, channels and wrecks... Those do move... Sometimes they move often..

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