Navionics Pull Hong Kong Coverage

[bewitched]

The latest update to the Navionics app that covers Africa and Asia has had Hong Kong waters removed.

According to Navionics, this is because the HK Hydrographic Office does not grant permission to ANY 3rd party to reproduce it's data. See their explanation here:

Hong Kong coverage removed | Navionics

I have send an email to michaelchau@mardep.gov.hk. who is the contact in Hong Kong dealing with this issue, asking him to reconsider.

I urge others to do the same.

[Jammer Six]

I wouldn't spend any of my electrons, without value as they are, on a Navionics product.

[bewitched]

It's not really about Navionics

It's about the HKSAR Hydro Office not letting 3rd party chart providers use their data to produce charts (even under a paid licence).

Whether that be Navionics, CMap or whoever.

At the end of this road is a situation where the chart sets for provided on recreational navigation aids (chart plotters, PCs / laptops, tablet & phones) cannot show Hong Kong waters.

The HKSAR stance seems to be: We provide data for ECS (v. expensive) if you want to use electronic charts, you must install ECS on your vessel and buy the charts data from us.

[Jammer Six]

Has Navionic's claim been verified by anybody else? Do any other electronic chart makers offer Hong Kong waters? How does Hong Kong control African charts, or Asian charts other than Hong Kong? Is Hong Kong the only source?

[El Pinguino]

Be thankful you kept your paper charts.....

If not I'm sure openCPN, CM93 and the Mk1 Eyeball will keep you safe.....

[paul45]

I just discovered this problem over the weekend... my friends and I have a saying when something like this happens - "you've been Hong Konged." Needless to say I thought it was pointless to question or challenge them, so took a different tack (sorry the pun).




Dear Mr. Chau,





I am a Pleasure Vessel Operator Grade 2 license holder since September 2014. My time operating my vessel in Hong Kong waters is relatively short. I came to rely upon the Navionics application with the detailed Hong Kong charts.





I am writing to say thank you for forcing Navionics to remove the detailed charts from the application without any prior notification or warning or allowing the company time to use the charts while an alternative was found. It makes imminent sense to me that the Marine Department, operating under the auspices of the government as a not-for-profit agency and relying upon license fees and taxes from the vessel operators and, more broadly, the people of Hong Kong, would have such a copyright on what in any other jurisdiction in the world would be consider public data.





Moreover, the sudden retraction of the map detail without any due regard to safety of operators reliant on the maps was certainly a thoughtful decision on the part of the Marine Department and you are all to be congratulated for that. In my case this was discovered when I ran into heavy fog while operating off the waters of Sai Kung on this past Saturday morning. When I discovered this I immediately thought to myself how faithfully the Marine Department in Hong Kong upholds its mission statement - "We are One in Promoting Excellence in Marine Services". I certainly felt at one with the Marine Department that morning trying to avoid hazards in the area while navigating through the dense fog. Perhaps it was that “oneness” and not the blank maps that I was staring at – covered with the message from the Marine Department about chart data not being licensed to any third party – that enabled me to find may way on that day.





I wish yourself and the Marine Department continued success in thwarting the illegal use of your data, wherever it may be found.





Yours faithfully,

[Kalinka1]

I don't understand this? I have navionics and other charts in my tablet and computer. I don't have to be connected to anything to use them. How can they disappear.

[DeepFrz]

Actually charts are not universally considered "public data". GB and Canada are two jurisdictions that control and sell the data. However they do provide it to chart companies for a fee as well.

[Dhillen]

Originally Posted by paul45

I just discovered this problem over the weekend... my friends and I have a saying when something like this happens - "you've been Hong Konged." Needless to say I thought it was pointless to question or challenge them, so took a different tack (sorry the pun).




Dear Mr. Chau,





I am a Pleasure Vessel Operator Grade 2 license holder since September 2014. My time operating my vessel in Hong Kong waters is relatively short. I came to rely upon the Navionics application with the detailed Hong Kong charts.





I am writing to say thank you for forcing Navionics to remove the detailed charts from the application without any prior notification or warning or allowing the company time to use the charts while an alternative was found. It makes imminent sense to me that the Marine Department, operating under the auspices of the government as a not-for-profit agency and relying upon license fees and taxes from the vessel operators and, more broadly, the people of Hong Kong, would have such a copyright on what in any other jurisdiction in the world would be consider public data.





Moreover, the sudden retraction of the map detail without any due regard to safety of operators reliant on the maps was certainly a thoughtful decision on the part of the Marine Department and you are all to be congratulated for that. In my case this was discovered when I ran into heavy fog while operating off the waters of Sai Kung on this past Saturday morning. When I discovered this I immediately thought to myself how faithfully the Marine Department in Hong Kong upholds its mission statement - "We are One in Promoting Excellence in Marine Services". I certainly felt at one with the Marine Department that morning trying to avoid hazards in the area while navigating through the dense fog. Perhaps it was that “oneness” and not the blank maps that I was staring at – covered with the message from the Marine Department about chart data not being licensed to any third party – that enabled me to find may way on that day.





I wish yourself and the Marine Department continued success in thwarting the illegal use of your data, wherever it may be found.





Yours faithfully,

We lived in Hong Kong for six long years and I have taken and passed the HK Maritime License as well. As you may realize, your letter is amusing to educated Westerners. Asians, however, don't "get" sarcasm. The letter will be taken at face value and they will most likely read it as approval for their ridiculous actions.

Not that it matters anyway. Hong Kong never was and certainly isn't now a democracy and they certainly don't care what you and I think.

The exam itself, I thought was totally ridiculous as well. When I was there the Marine Department would offer up sample safety questions on their website -> with no answers! They don't want to impart knowledge, the Asian mentality is just to make the test difficult. There is no substance here, it is only a piece of paper that the bureaucrats can make money on.

I could go on and on about the "myth" of Hong Kong but this is not the right place. You live there now and have to put up with that. I don't and am everyday thankful for it.

Best of luck, though.

Dhillen

[paul45]

Originally Posted by Dhillen

We lived in Hong Kong for six long years and I have taken and passed the HK Maritime License as well. As you may realize, your letter is amusing to educated Westerners. Asians, however, don't "get" sarcasm. The letter will be taken at face value and they will most likely read it as approval for their ridiculous actions.

Not that it matters anyway. Hong Kong never was and certainly isn't now a democracy and they certainly don't care what you and I think.

The exam itself, I thought was totally ridiculous as well. When I was there the Marine Department would offer up sample safety questions on their website -> with no answers! They don't want to impart knowledge, the Asian mentality is just to make the test difficult. There is no substance here, it is only a piece of paper that the bureaucrats can make money on.

I could go on and on about the "myth" of Hong Kong but this is not the right place. You live there now and have to put up with that. I don't and am everyday thankful for it.

Best of luck, though.

Dhillen

I think you're missing the point which you make yourself near the end. Or put differently, if I had dropped the sarcasm and given them a genuine complaint would it have mattered? I think the right channels for complaint are not the Marine Dept but maybe a sympathetic journalist at SCMP or the Ombudsman. I've not bothered to seek out either yet, but certainly I was happy to blow up the guys email inbox with one more annoying message!

Separate to that, can any HK boaters on here post what app they are now using? I emailed Navionics and they are going to refund me the cost of the software and charts. I tried the Garmin app and - you just can't make this up - after paying the $70 for the Asia charts and downloading the tiles around HK, there is NO chart detail for HK. I feel like this is a conspiracy...

[paul45]

Strike two...

Dear ,

Thank you for contacting Garmin International. I would be happy to help you with this today. Unfortunately, at this time China is not allowing us to have any detailed charts of Hong Kong. I apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused you. Please let me know if there is anything else I may further assist you with.

With Best Regards,

Customer Care - Marine Team
Garmin International

[paul45]

Third time lucky... Transas iSailor works like a charm, with detailed charts of HK

[DITB]

Originally Posted by paul45

Third time lucky... Transas iSailor works like a charm, with detailed charts of HK

Oh, could that be used on a Raymarine E120 (Classic)?

My charts are many years old now and ... when I want to update them, I find that I can update for the entire world (where coverage exists), but Hong Kong.

So I have the old, outdated charts in my plotter. Sure beats have just a blank space.

I saw this thing called OpenCPN here in another sub forum. That surely won't fit my plotter, but could I use it on my iPad? Does it have any significant or relevant coverage at all?

Upgrading my HK Grade 2 license to a grade 1 this summer, and I was looking for new charts (including for my plotter). As for everything else in HK, supply is regulated artificially, either by limiting the supply itself, or by imposing monopoly like this.

The policy surely conforms with the Hong Kong "government" mentality of this box ticking sub-nation of China, both for Marine Department but also the general HK public idiotic "cannot" black/white pretending way that "all is fine".

[DITB]

Originally Posted by paul45

Third time lucky... Transas iSailor works like a charm, with detailed charts of HK

Well, they, too, had their hands forced, so to answer my previous post on the matter:

October, 2015 - Dear iSailor users,

As a new iSailor release is coming soon, it's our duty to warn the users who had previously purchased Hong Kong area charts that starting from this update, Hong Kong charts will no longer be available for use in our application (will be removed).

The Hong Kong charts will be pulled by order of a Hong Kong authority banning any third party (Transas Marine in our case) to sell cartographic data produced by them.

This applies not only to us, but to all our good competitors as well.

Therefore, we do NOT recommend to update iSailor to those users who would like to keep their Hong Kong area charts until this situation is resolved (the outcome is still unclear). Otherwise, the charts will disappear after you have updated the application.

Sincerely yours,
Transas iSailor Team