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View Poll Results: Should navigational aids be discontinued?
Yes! We have GPS and chartplotters now. They just get in the way now! 6 7.50%
No, they are a useful backup to the GPS/Plotter/Microwave/Vibrator thing that blinks at me as I drive the boat. 74 92.50%
Voters: 80. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 18-06-2011, 15:28   #121
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Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
Attached is a screen capture of part of Singapore Straits - we were talking about it in another thread.

Have a look at this traffic seperation zone.

Note my 5nm scale line.

See how FEW nav aids there are? Notice NONE are channel markers! Including where seperated traffic lanes close together again.

Pull it up on your charts and have a look. Its fun


Mark
Well, the reason that none are channel markers is that it isn't a channel!

Rather it is an arbitrary setup to keep ships from running into each other, not from running aground or into a rock. Different set of hazards entirely.

I've never sailed there, Mark... are the zones mandatory or advisory? That makes a difference, too.

Cheers,

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Old 19-06-2011, 06:49   #122
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Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
I've never sailed there, Mark... are the zones mandatory or advisory? That makes a difference, too.

Cheers,

Jim

mandatory and controlled by voice from a control tower (how they see anything in the smog is beyond me). Ships run through there 3 abreast. Its quite extraordinary.
When you head up that way sometime you will enjoy the experience. Its quite bizarre.
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Old 19-06-2011, 07:53   #123
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Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

Yeah, you can totally rely on electronics when sailing as long as you have a backup. For example if my GPS chartplotter fails I can always use my LORAN reciever to know where I am. Oh wait a minute!:
THE BIANKA LOG BLOG: TO DO LIST: REMOVE LORAN

Seriously, as a person who made a nice living for decades repairing electronics that failed I would never trust an electronic device entirely to navigate if navigation aids were made "obsolete"replaced with electronic simulation aids. You are just one 75 cent fuse from being blind in unfamiliar waters without the navigational aids to depend on. Yes, I will use my chartplotter but, as Ronald Reagan said "trust but, verify". To do otherwise IMO is playing Russian roulette with your boat.
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Old 19-06-2011, 08:38   #124
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Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

My truck had GPS and routing software to tell you where everything is at, all the roads, scales, etc.
You still need traffic control and lane markings, all the same.
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Old 19-06-2011, 09:14   #125
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Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

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My truck had GPS and routing software to tell you where everything is at, all the roads, scales, etc.
You still need traffic control and lane markings, all the same.
Santana:

Very good point! I wonder if those who consider getting rid of navigational aids on the waters as a positive thing would do the same for traffic and exit signs on the highways Yeah, and while we are at it how about ALL street signs too! Yeah, we could save money eliminating them too! After all you can trust your GPS just ask the guy who turned onto the railroad tracks because the GPS in his car told him too!
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Old 19-06-2011, 09:29   #126
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Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Yes, it'll depend on how you ask that. When you tell him he can use AIS, chartplotter and radar, I'm sure he will agree with me that it is no problem to do without markers.

Dinghies: sure, but I never needed navmarkers when I was just sailing (not racing) my Laser.



Anyone who has cruised the Florida Keys or the ICW knows this isn't happening. I've seen plants growing out of the water mid-channel which was marked as 7' deep on the charts in the FL keys.

ciao!
Nick.
That is what the Army Corp's is responsible for. I never said how effective they are at doing their job.

I will ask my pilot friend that question in those terms the next time I see him.
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Old 19-06-2011, 09:53   #127
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Re: Navigational aids are a waste of money!

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Originally Posted by Therapy View Post
I don't think I am going to go through four pages of this stuff.

But as a good CF person I will make a comment.

Pray tell us how in the world anyone navigated before there were buoys and such? Didn't happen right?

I'll tell you what I think. I think that when the newfangled poles, sticks and floating glass balls and other things started appearing that many said they were unreliable and one must use the old ways and actually know how to navigate.

LOL
Back before Nav aids mariners regularly ran aground, sank and drowned. I don't think I will LOL about that state of affairs.

Of course back then people also regularly died of stupid things like poor hygine and malnutrition so the odd sinking was not nearly as noteworthy as it is today.
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Old 19-06-2011, 10:07   #128
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Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

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That information is historic; it tells me nothing about the state of the marker in front of me now (did the storm yesterday move it?)
Give me a break. In .0001% or fewer instances, there is a problem with the location of the markers that can't be resolved with a bit of intelligence and common sense, and experience.
I've had a GPS quit on two occasions and only the markers, plus my ability to use a paper chart and knowledge of how to use them, got me through.
Sure, electronics are wonderful, and I would fight to the death to keep my Garmin 3210, but removing the markers is wrong. The government is transferring the liability for accidents to the private sector (insurance, towing companies). Since there is no possible way for the private sector to profit from establishing and maintaining daymarks (can you see ads lining the daymarks for example?), there is no incentive for private industry to keep them.
The government has some uses and providing necessary services to the public that do not provide a profit is one of them.
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Old 19-06-2011, 14:29   #129
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Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

Okay, let's take an approach in the Bahamas as an example. Where are the markers???!!! So..... you can't sail there because there are no markers? Very well, keeps paradise from overcrowding



ciao!
Nick.
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Old 19-06-2011, 14:45   #130
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Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

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Where are the markers???!!!
Nobeltec Trident? You're the first guy I know who has it.
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Old 19-06-2011, 15:38   #131
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Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

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Nobeltec Trident? You're the first guy I know who has it.
The image s/v Jedi showed looks suspiciously similar to a chart on the Nobletec promo site, I went there to take a look but when I found it was priced about $1,000, I lifted my glass (Rum naturally) to those wonderful folks who give us Freely, that beautifully constructed OpenCPN.
Since I use my laptop Only for backup, for a grand, I would want something that would wake me up gently with a loving hug, a fresh coffee, and a bacon sandwich before sending me topside.
And as far as I can tell, none of the paid for programs do that yet.
Maybe the next release…..James
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Old 19-06-2011, 17:18   #132
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Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

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[FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]...I would want something that would wake me up gently with a loving hug, a fresh coffee, and a bacon sandwich before sending me topside....

And as far as I can tell, none of the paid for programs do that yet.
Wife v1.0 does that but mine has some bugs that I'm working on debugging.
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Old 19-06-2011, 19:17   #133
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Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

I have MaxSea TZ but Googled this image... it's all Furuno now and this Nobeltec software is MaxSea TZ with a different skin. Chartplotters are the same too.

But it's about the map... no navmarkers

ciao!
Nick.
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Old 19-06-2011, 20:10   #134
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Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

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Okay, let's take an approach in the Bahamas as an example. Where are the markers???!!! So..... you can't sail there because there are no markers? Very well, keeps paradise from overcrowding
ciao!
Nick.
A fair point. But, be careful what you wish for. Obviously one can sail anywhere with or without markers. But, it's nice to have the navigational aids for reference and/or a backup. If your electronic aid fails you'll probably be able to get your boat into a harbor that has real navigational aids. Odds start to favor Neptune when there are none. Then again some of the local governments in "paradise" who decide to eliminate the navigation aids could demand cruising sailors take on a pilot to enter some of their harbors. Say hello to the boat boys in de skiffs coming out to greet you and for a pilot fee to escort your boat into the harbor in addition to the cruiser fees you already paid. Your $$$ sophisticated chart plotter/computer program won't help you there. Welcome to paradise!
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Old 19-06-2011, 20:45   #135
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Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

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Originally Posted by mbianka View Post
A fair point. But, be careful what you wish for. Obviously one can sail anywhere with or without markers. But, it's nice to have the navigational aids for reference and/or a backup. If your electronic aid fails you'll probably be able to get your boat into a harbor that has real navigational aids. Odds start to favor Neptune when there are none. Then again some of the local governments in "paradise" who decide to eliminate the navigation aids could demand cruising sailors take on a pilot to enter some of their harbors. Say hello to the boat boys in de skiffs coming out to greet you and for a pilot fee to escort your boat into the harbor in addition to the cruiser fees you already paid. Your $$$ sophisticated chart plotter/computer program won't help you there. Welcome to paradise!
Okay let's follow your logic. My GPS fails or the satellites are turned off, whatever. This still leaves me with a chart and my eyeballs and my radar and my depth sounder so I can enter without the help of a boat boy. If all those instruments fail too, I can launch my dinghy and scout the entry using a portable depth sounder, even put in some temporary markers (soda bottles).

You sound very upset with my $$$ sophisticated chart plotter/computer program, but I got the class-A AIS, radar and even forward looking sonar toys too, which can all be used here. Don't worry about me too much, I've crossed seas 30 years ago with just a compass and still got there. I think I'm the only cruiser who never paid boat boys a cent but still got T-shirts from them

ciao!
Nick.
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