Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

View Poll Results: Should navigational aids be discontinued?
Yes! We have GPS and chartplotters now. They just get in the way now! 6 7.50%
No, they are a useful backup to the GPS/Plotter/Microwave/Vibrator thing that blinks at me as I drive the boat. 74 92.50%
Voters: 80. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 17-06-2011, 09:44   #91
Senior Cruiser
 
sneuman's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2003
Location: Jamaica
Boat: Tayana 37 Cutter
Posts: 3,167
Images: 37
Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlF View Post
I cruised New England before electronics (well, I had an RDF but Maine had few beacons). This sometimes meant searching for buoys in 50ft visibility fog with only charts, a compass, a copy of Eldridge, and a hand lead line with tallow to check the bottom. It was really scary.

I'm quite ready to see nav markers go as long as the money is invested in other marine improvements.

The money (and it's considerable) spent on buoy maintenance could be put into more dredging, improved breakwaters, more frequent chart updates, and a raft of other things that would substantially increase safety for mariners and their vessels.

Carl
Good point, but I would be willing to bet you a chartplotter that the money would not go back into any of that, but would end up somewhere else. What you're proposing is "revenue neutral" and that isn't in the cards, IMHO.
__________________

__________________
Voyage of Symbiosis: http://svsymbiosis.blogspot.com/
sneuman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2011, 09:49   #92
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Abaco, Bahamas/ Western NC
Boat: Nothing large at the moment
Posts: 820
Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

No one thingy is ever correct all the time. Aids are misplaced, electrical hickeys screw up, people screw up. We need to use everything avilable, and PAY ATTENTION.
__________________

__________________
Tingum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2011, 09:56   #93
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Lafayette, Louisiana
Boat: Ketch, Hardin 45
Posts: 440
Images: 6
Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

All you who depend on the electronic Chart display, One minor question:
How often do you have your electronic charts upgraded? That is corrected to the new buoy changes, light changes, channel changes and so forth. How often??

At least with paper charts and using the LMN you can correct your chart every week if you so desire too.
__________________
boasun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2011, 10:05   #94
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Lagoon city
Boat: Bayfield 23
Posts: 9
Images: 2
Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

I have a compass and NO GPS on my present boat( Batteries keep dying on handheld) so I use the channel markers and bouys. It is possible for the bouys to fail or be in the wrong place but my GPS will probably fail before they do.
__________________
sailonsimcoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2011, 10:31   #95
Long Range Cruiser
 
MarkJ's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australian living on "Sea Life" currently in England.
Boat: Beneteau 393 "Sea Life"
Posts: 12,828
Images: 25
Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

Quote:
Originally Posted by boasun View Post
At least with paper charts and using the LMN you can correct your chart every week if you so desire too.
But none of you do. Thats what make such a huge hypocricy. NONE of you update all your paper charts.

Do you? Admit it. You don't update all your charts each week?


Mark
__________________
Notes on a Circumnavigation.
OurLifeAtSea.com

Somalia Pirates and our Convoy
MarkJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2011, 10:49   #96
Registered User
 
webejammin's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Pacific NW, sailing the Columbia River, USA
Boat: Gemini 105MC 34 ft hull#753
Posts: 951
Images: 3
Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

We are moored about a 100 ft from a CG station decicated to maintanceing Nav aids on the Columbia River. This year the rivers are flooding big time and several floating nav aids are under about 5 ft of water. In flood years sand bars are created and other sand bars go away so the channel is constantly changing lots faster than chartplotters or paper maps can keep up on a week to week bases so we depend on the CG nav aids that are constantly being re set. The CG around here are a hard working group.
__________________
Wind in my hair and a nice catamaran
Phil & Elaine
webejammin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2011, 11:32   #97
Registered User

Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,971
Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

What are you updating on the charts from the LNM? Mostly, buoys and nav markers? Another chore saved if there are no buoys. Fortunately rocks don't move around much. The Coast Guard has pretty much given up charting shifting shoals. They've even removed the buoys in some of the GA and SC shoaling inlets so no one relies on them. There's an irony

I used to do the hand updating. Took hours. And it was impractical outside of home waters. Do you try to do hand updating for a large cruising area?

It is really easy to update many chart plotters today over the internet. Sometimes free but certainly cheaper than buying updated paper charts. And it would be an easy improvement to have the chart plotters automatically update whenever the Internet is available. Offshore there's nothing to hit that's on a chart.

I bet the Coast Guard could even figure out a way to update chart plotters by VHF just like they use channel 70 to transmit GPS coordinates for DSC. Wouldn't it be great if your chartplotter would automatically adjust as your approached a shoaling inlet.

In my book, sailing with just a compass makes you a hazard to yourself and others. I'm just not sympathetic to the batteries go flat argument. Get a $20 cable and hook your hand held to a proper battery. It's better for the environment too not to throw out batteries. Use a solar panel to charge.

I do worry that the saved money from ending buoys would go to a non maritime use. But that's not an argument for wasting money. I also bet that there are some smart folks in the Coast Guard budget office who are pretty good at holding onto budget. It's a lot easier to re-allocate budget than to ask for more.

Carl
__________________
CarlF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2011, 11:34   #98
Senior Cruiser
 
rebel heart's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,190
Images: 3
Re: Navigational aids are a waste of money!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
A third choice may be needed.

3) Navigational aids, when used with discretion, are a primary means of navigation.

The discretionary comment comes from the problems associated with lights being out, lights being changed, buoys getting shifted etc.. But that is the purpose of Notices to Mariners and Notices to Shipping.
Yeah I'm going to trust nav aids and reality over what the software is telling me. Every week there's some idiot around here smashing into something while staring into his chart plotter.
__________________
rebel heart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2011, 12:46   #99
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Lafayette, Louisiana
Boat: Ketch, Hardin 45
Posts: 440
Images: 6
Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
But none of you do. Thats what make such a huge hypocricy. NONE of you update all your paper charts.

Do you? Admit it. You don't update all your charts each week?

Mark
Sorry Mark;
But My license is 1600 ton Master / 2nd Mate Unlimited upon Oceans. And I do the chart corrections all the time when I'm working on board ships.
I up date the charts we are using for that run and the other charts have a tickler file for the LMNs that affect them, so I can correct them in jigs time when I'm going to use them.
It is a responsibility required by law (read your CFRs) and requires good work habits to do the job properly. For failure to do the corrections they can find you negligent of your duties and zap your license big time.
__________________
boasun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2011, 12:53   #100
Senior Cruiser
 
rebel heart's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,190
Images: 3
Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

I process and read all my NLM's all the time. It's really not that much work and there's valuable stuff in there in regards to dredging and various types of work being done. There's now a quasi-official shipping lane north of Santa Cruz Island. I highly doubt anyone transiting the area would know that unless they at least read the NLM.
__________________
rebel heart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2011, 16:14   #101
Registered User
 
doug86's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Between Block Island and Bahamas
Boat: Marine Trader 40' Sedan Trawler, 1978. WATER TORTURE
Posts: 715
Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

Quote:
Originally Posted by boasun View Post
All you who depend on the electronic Chart display, One minor question:
How often do you have your electronic charts upgraded? That is corrected to the new buoy changes, light changes, channel changes and so forth. How often??

At least with paper charts and using the LMN you can correct your chart every week if you so desire too.
At of this date, most NOAA raster charts are updated every 6 months, and my C-Map cartridges are fresh every year.

But... in the not to distant future, electronic charts will be updated live all the time, and the "oldest" chart available for download will be about 24 hours old. Kinda beats the weekly LNM idea, huh?
__________________
"When one is willing to go without, then one is free to go." - doug86
doug86 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2011, 17:27   #102
Registered User
 
James Baines's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Lowestoft, England
Boat: Hanse 445 - 2012
Posts: 276
Send a message via Skype™ to James Baines
Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

With the utmost respect boasun, although I would hope that most if not all of the commercial guys do exactly what you do for both safety and legal (Read “Insurance”) reasons, I have to agree with MarkJ’s view of the issue.


The vast majority of folks on this site are recreational sailors rather than professional and I would guess that most update their charts on an “As and When” required basis rather than by religious weekly rote.

I would guess further that like me, they update first by asking questions of others around them regarding local issues, then by asking questions on sites such as this about important chart change information for destinations they rarely visit and points in between, and, as Doug86 suggests, and only if they can afford to do so, by downloading the latest E.Charts for their plotters and marking up the paper as required. Recognising of course that not all “E. Chart” updates are exactly current.

And updating of course by not being afraid to use the radio to seek advice (Generally promptly and freely available) prior to entering or departing unfamiliar harbours.

I’m very lucky, I currently park my boat in the Hamilton Road Dock in Lowestoft, England, certainly not the prettiest “Marina” you ever saw since it is 75% commercial but because of that, I have access to all the latest information simply by inviting the commercial guys over for a beer…

I think the key here is the “When and as Required” thing, you commercial guys need to be 100% up to date 100% of the time whereas we “Recreational” folks only need to be up to date relative to our current transit plans.

And of course whereas many of the commercial folks get their navigation updates delivered via a faceless corporate contract, we, the great unwashed recreational sailors, more often than not, have to dig our hands into our own pockets to pay for that information…James
__________________
I used to be indecisive but now I'm not so sure...
James Baines is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2011, 17:28   #103
Registered User
 
redcobra's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Towson, MD Chesapeake Bay
Boat: Pearson 39 Yawl "ZigZag"
Posts: 516
Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

Quote:
Originally Posted by doug86 View Post
At of this date, most NOAA raster charts are updated every 6 months, and my C-Map cartridges are fresh every year.

But... in the not to distant future, electronic charts will be updated live all the time, and the "oldest" chart available for download will be about 24 hours old. Kinda beats the weekly LNM idea, huh?
I'm not holding my breath.....
__________________
redcobra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2011, 17:56   #104
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Seattle
Boat: Work: Ships/Tugs Play: Grand Banks 36
Posts: 76
Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

Some of you are nuts. Get rid of ATONs in favor of "digital" ones?

Aside from the complete disregard for vessels without electrical systems or what happens when boats so-equipped lose power or the system itself goes down, visual navigation using the current ATON's is very much utilized (and emphasized) by professionals, as it should be for everyone. I get the impression that some of you stare more at your electronics than the ship drivers do! Most of us don't have our heads buried in the radar or ECDIS all the time.

Some of the best pilots I have ever seen never left from standing at the forward windows, day or night (except in reduced vis.), with their eyes peeled on the next set of buoys to pass between, a range to steer on or the lining of a light against a bridge tower that marks a turn, etc. Electronics have their place, no doubt, but this current trend to digitize everything into a little virtual environment is ludicrous. Look out the freakin' window!!
__________________
Watermann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2011, 17:56   #105
Registered User
 
James Baines's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Lowestoft, England
Boat: Hanse 445 - 2012
Posts: 276
Send a message via Skype™ to James Baines
Re: Navigational Aids are a Waste of Money !

Quote:
Originally Posted by redcobra View Post
I'm not holding my breath.....

And nor should you given that the world record for that is about 20 minutes or so.

However, the point made was that without a shadow of doubt, real time and “Without Demand” user input requests for updates will be soon, Very Soon, available to all who use any form of E. Plotters and probably at a very low cost.

That’s not dreaming or wishful thinking, it’s simply a matter of fact.

Technology marches on and the integration of previously stand alone information data sets marches at an even greater pace. Get used to the notion that within a few months from now, you will be able to plan your next great “Adventure” in front of your 50” TV safely ensconced in your favourite armchair and be able to upload your plans to the “Cloud” for later retrieval or directly to your onboard systems.

Again, this is not dreaming, it is reality. If we mere mortals can think about it today, you can bet your butt that someone out there is already on the verge of launching it and hoping to make a few bucks…James
__________________

__________________
I used to be indecisive but now I'm not so sure...
James Baines is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
money

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Rocna Anchor Sizing Aids Pyxis156 Anchoring & Mooring 71 17-04-2012 13:07
Lifespan of Hearing Aids Around Salt Water LiveLife76 Health, Safety & Related Gear 29 24-02-2012 23:28
Money Doesn't Grow on a Money Tree phmadeira Dollars & Cents 7 28-10-2009 07:25
J-School for Racing - Worth it or Waste of Money? BIG JOE Training, Licensing & Certification 14 27-10-2009 06:36
'Naval Architects and Designers Are a Waste of Money' LtBrett Construction, Maintenance & Refit 16 13-09-2009 21:47



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 00:04.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.