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View Poll Results: Should navigational aids be discontinued?
Yes! We have GPS and chartplotters now. They just get in the way now! 6 7.50%
No, they are a useful backup to the GPS/Plotter/Microwave/Vibrator thing that blinks at me as I drive the boat. 74 92.50%
Voters: 80. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 14-06-2011, 10:29   #16
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Re: Navigational aids are a waste of money!

How to define navigational aids? Welcome to the 21 st century.

Aids to Navigation are vital for most mariners and navigational aids (tools) too.
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Old 14-06-2011, 10:34   #17
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Re: Navigational aids are a waste of money!

There are plenty of fully automated lighthouses on the west coast. I think they are all automated now and they are useful. For one thing they help verify what you are seeing on your chart plotter.

I am not one to believe you should be throwing away any tools in your navigation tool box. The more you have, the better. You just never know when you might need that one tool you have not used in years. Besides, sometimes it is fun to go retro, if not for anything else but practice. Once in a while I do not bother turning on any of my nav electronics. It's kind of refreshing in a way...getting back to the basics.

For those of you with a bunch of electronics, do you ever find yourself looking at at your electronics too much and forgetting to look up at the scenery enough to enjoy the experience for what it is? I sometimes find myself trying to be too "anal" with my electronic navigation. Doing things like shaving off a few hundredth's of a mile off a route..etc etc.

Does anyone else find themselves doing things like this with their nav electronics?
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Old 14-06-2011, 10:42   #18
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Re: Navigational aids are a waste of money!

Wow,

I am having trouble with the idea of this poll... there is not even a reasonable option.

If you vote 'yes' you are in for a rude awakening some dark night...

Even the 'no' is pretty unrealistic (even the no relies on GPS over what you can see)... you do realize they MOVE nav aids right?

Your GPS is not updated whenever they do this....




Maybe this 'community' really does need a government to pass laws protecting people from them selves... ?
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Old 14-06-2011, 10:47   #19
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Re: Navigational aids are a waste of money!

So, you guys are actually personally using nav aids? What, the AI system on your boats doesn't do all that on voice command all by itself?

"Computer, lay in a course for Tahiti. Warp 9 please."
"Aye aye, Captain!"

Virtual nav aids. No doubt to be hit by a virtual drunk boater?
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Old 14-06-2011, 11:01   #20
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Re: Navigational aids are a waste of money!

As a mooring aid>?



"But honestly officer, my GPS did not show it there"...

Here is a link to another story that might be helpful to those who worship at the altar of the chartplotter...

(connection has yet to be established, but not unlikely).
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Old 14-06-2011, 11:05   #21
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Re: Navigational aids are a waste of money!

It's not a one or the other thing...they both work to help you which is why navigation is both a science and an art. The science is knowing how the navaids and the electronics work and the art is in know how to analyze and to weigh the information so as to be able to make a good decision.
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Old 14-06-2011, 11:08   #22
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Re: Navigational aids are a waste of money!

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Originally Posted by s/v 'Faith' View Post
As a mooring aid>?



.
Now it makes perfect sense! The reason these types of boats have long bows is to act as protective crumple zones.
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Old 14-06-2011, 11:10   #23
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Re: Navigational aids are a waste of money!

Whenever I use my computer's Capn program, as it switches from one chart to another, I use the first solid object, preferably a navigation aid, to confirm that the chart is correct. They can be miles off!

I came into Isla Mujeres at night once (on the south end) and although I could hear the surf of the reef 100' to starboard, my computer naviguesser still had my position 2 miles at sea! The GPS was correct, but the computer and paper chart was based on ancient cartography.

There was a light at the top of the cliff to starboard, IF ONLY THE BATTERY HADN'T BEEN DEAD!

Only gut instinct, soundings, visual cues, sound, and being willing to call LIAR to my GPS/chart... got us in safely.

We need to consider GPS as a useful tool among all of the others, including paper charts, binoculars, AND navigational aids!!! For clearing through a pass in the reef, or an inlet, they're essential!

Mark
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Old 14-06-2011, 11:23   #24
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Re: Navigational aids are a waste of money!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ActiveCaptain View Post
The poll asks the wrong question. "Now" they are needed. Will they be needed in future generations? Definitely not.
I'm not thinking we will ever be able to do with out them, as long as there is a chance of equipment failure, they will be relevant.
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Old 14-06-2011, 11:34   #25
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Re: Navigational aids are a waste of money!

I hope I'm close enough to claim salvage on some of those "virtual cockpit" boats. Could be quite lucrative.
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Old 14-06-2011, 11:39   #26
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Re: Navigational aids are a waste of money!

The virtual markers are in use in Europe already. They are transmitted by shore stations and show up on AIS.

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Old 14-06-2011, 11:40   #27
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Re: Navigational aids are a waste of money!

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I'm not thinking we will ever be able to do with out them, as long as there is a chance of equipment failure, they will be relevant.
Like the electronic ignition system in your car? Or how about the electronically controlled engines that dominate diesel production today?

Actually, I think the next step will be the appearance of AIS transponders in ATON's which will make the buoys even more valuable. That'll allow a new layer on chartplotters providing the exact location of the buoys and other aids. THEN, the buoys will disappear but the transponder position will remain electronically using over-the-air positioning.

I'm sure someone will come up with a pair of virtual reality sunglasses that'll project the image of where the buoy are located into your field of view for those who really need to see the aid out on the horizon.
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Old 14-06-2011, 11:54   #28
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Re: Navigational aids are a waste of money!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
A third choice may be needed.

3) Navigational aids, when used with discretion, are a primary means of navigation.

The discretionary comment comes from the problems associated with lights being out, lights being changed, buoys getting shifted etc.. But that is the purpose of Notices to Mariners and Notices to Shipping.
As they say on other forums, "mod this up".

As much as I am partial to electronic navigation, personally I feel that primary use of electronic navigation is to suggest real world features *including* real physical navaids. It is still ultimately crucial to verify and see the real navaids and navigate based on their position.
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Old 14-06-2011, 11:59   #29
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Re: Navigational aids are a waste of money!

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
The virtual markers are in use in Europe already. They are transmitted by shore stations and show up on AIS.

cheers,
Nick.
Yes, but they aren't a replacement for the physical ones. They are a supplement so it shows on your AIS display even when visibility is too poor to see the physical ones visually.

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Old 14-06-2011, 12:15   #30
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Re: Navigational aids are a waste of money!

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Yes, but they aren't a replacement for the physical ones. They are a supplement so it shows on your AIS display even when visibility is too poor to see the physical ones visually.

-dan
- some temporary markers (like new wreck etc.) are only virtual
- real markers that went missing are temporary replaced by the virtual ones

The thing is that as this happens more often and for years to come, people will get used to it, accept it and real markers will start to disappear.

ciao!
Nick.
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