Navigation In the 0-3 Fathoms Zone

[chala]

Originally Posted by catty

By the way when you mention anchoring at Valencia island do you mean tucking in behind the western side of Annesley point near the houses, or Valencias island?

I mean Valentia island about 11°23.616 S, 132°47.289 E.

[chala]

Originally Posted by gravosa

i am former master mariner.

Leaving corn growing in Alice Springs aside, which could be as risky a business as navigating in the 0 to 3 fathoms zone, as a former master mariner what is your view on the original post?

Originally Posted by catty

By the way has any of this helped with your OP.......

Should a mariner be able to trust that enough navigable water exist between the “Open Sea” and a spot sounding of 2 fathoms (3.7 meter) in a charted 0 to 3 fathoms zone? (0 to 5.5 meter zone)
Regards

[Unicorn Dreams]

I sail the Caribbean and the Gulf of Mexico a lot. If you have over 3 fathoms of water it's a miracle. Usually have less than 5' of water under the keel.

[chala]

Originally Posted by Unicorn Dreams

I sail the Caribbean and the Gulf of Mexico a lot. If you have over 3 fathoms of water it's a miracle. Usually have less than 5' of water under the keel.

Thanks and the answer to the original post is?

Originally Posted by catty

Should a mariner be able to trust that enough navigable water exist between the “Open Sea” and a spot sounding of 2 fathoms (3.7 meter) in a charted 0 to 3 fathoms zone? (0 to 5.5 meter zone)
Regards

[Unicorn Dreams]

Usually go by charts and keep an eye on the fathometer and set the alarm.

Gulf of Mexico is mostly a softer bottom.

Caribbean, use more care and visually watch the bottom.

[chala]

Originally Posted by Unicorn Dreams

Usually go by charts and keep an eye on the fathometer and set the alarm.

I would take that this mean Yes?

[Unicorn Dreams]

yes, I do in the 2+ fathom range

[Surfer Girl]

chala,

A mariner can never really "trust" anything except him or her self. Charts are an aid to navigation - they are one of the tools a skipper uses. But they can be incorrect, outdated or incomplete. Similarly, Navigation Aids (NavAids) - channel marks, lateral marks, safe water marks, special marks, isolated danger marks, etc - are an "aid" to navigation but cannot be 100% relied upon. Sand bars shift, buoys can drag, coral reefs grow, etc.
The best tool is the master's senses and the use of back-up systems. If you navigate solely trusting your GPS, for example, you will eventually come unstuck (or get stuck, actually LOL).

Of course, if you have extensive local knowledge - go for it. But when navigating a new waterway, especially a channel or approaching an anchorage, you should always use caution. Of course, you should have consulted the chart (both paper and electronic), be using your GPS, have you depth gauge alarm set. But more importantly, you should have your senses tuned - eyes scanning ahead; looking for subtle changes in the colour of the water, the flow of the current or tide, disruption in the water flow and wavelets (which can indicate shallow water), watching other water traffic, etc. Rely on your gut feeling. And if in doubt, approach dead slow - if you bump into something at 1 knot you probably won't sustain damage to the vessel and can reverse off...

Interestingly, the requirement for the master of the vessel to 'Keep Proper Lookout' at all times, includes below the water surface! If you're not sure what hazards may lie submerged then you probable shouldn't be going fast! A few years ago when I was working for NSW Maritime as a Boating Officer, a guy sent an invoice to my manager for a new outboard because he was travelling at speed and hit a submerged rock. His take was that NSW Maritime should've had that hazard buoyed. My manager sent him back a fine for 'Negligent Navigation' for failing to Keep Proper Lookout and not travelling at a 'Safe Speed'... true story.

chala, in 2004 I was motoring my 43 footer through a narrow passage between islands in the BVI's just before sunset on approach to an anchorage. I had the paper chart out, I had my laptop with C-Map and interfaced GPS open and I was travelling at about 5 knots. Up ahead my eyes took in a few conflicting signs on the water, I slowed the boat right down and consulted the C-Map and cross referenced it with the paper chart. They were giving conflicting info (regarding exact reef position) but both were saying the passage was clear ahead, deep water. But I didn't like it, my senses were telling me different and my gut was too. I stopped the boat and slowly circled back, then placed a crew member on the pulpit to scan ahead. I then proceeded very slowly, liasing with the crew member, at times stopping the boat to run forward to the bow and double check myself.... long story short, we navigated through safely and got to our anchorage and soon had the Mt Gay rum out . But there was a finger of reef jutting out across that passage when both charts said there wasn't! If I had solely trusted the chart(s), we would've hit reef....

I know it's a long answer to your question but No, don't just trust the chart. Use all the tools at your disposal but in the end you are the Skipper and you are responsible for safe navigation.

[chala]

Originally Posted by Surfer Girl

A few years ago when I was working for NSW Maritime as a Boating Officer, a guy sent an invoice to my manager for a new outboard because he was travelling at speed and hit a submerged rock. His take was that NSW Maritime should've had that hazard buoyed. My manager sent him back a fine for 'Negligent Navigation' for failing to Keep Proper Lookout and not travelling at a 'Safe Speed'... true story.

And what did the manager do about the submerged rock?
Did the guy paid the fine?

[Surfer Girl]

Manager didn't do anything about the submerged rock because it was in a massive dam called Burrendong (5 times bigger than Sydney Harbour when full) and water levels fluctuate constantly in a dam making NavAids a bit redundant. The point is, you can't place a buoy on every rock, bit of reef or other submerged hazards - when it comes down to it, it is the master's responsibilty to navigate safely.
I'm sure he did pay the fine, otherwise he would've been taken to court...

[chala]

Originally Posted by Surfer Girl

Manager didn't do anything about the submerged rock because it was in a massive dam called Burrendong (5 times bigger than Sydney Harbour when full) and water levels fluctuate constantly in a dam making NavAids a bit redundant. The point is, you can't place a buoy on every rock, bit of reef or other submerged hazards - when it comes down to it, it is the master's responsibilty to navigate safely.
I'm sure he did pay the fine, otherwise he would've been taken to court...

Sorry I fail to see the relevance.

[chala]

Originally Posted by Surfer Girl

A mariner can never really "trust" anything except him or her self. Charts are an aid to navigation - they are one of the tools a skipper uses. But they can be incorrect, outdated or incomplete. Similarly, Navigation Aids (NavAids) - channel marks, lateral marks, safe water marks, special marks, isolated danger marks, etc - are an "aid" to navigation but cannot be 100% relied upon. Sand bars shift, buoys can drag, coral reefs grow, etc.

If I read Hydro correctly they only list “charts that have been ‘remanufactured’ for use in chart plotters.” as “‘Not For Navigation’ or ‘Aid to Navigation’”
They also declare “The official charts are those produced by the Australian Hydrographic Service.” “Each of these charts results from months of
painstaking work to ensure they are as accurate as possible, and all are
covered by a fortnightly update service.”
They also state “‘Unofficial’ electronic charts are tailored products – while they are extremely popular, and many recreational mariners use them without incident, they are not intended to support safety of navigation.”
Which to me implies that official charts are intended to support safety of navigation. Further more” Because priority for surveying is given to the major shipping routes, an essential skill for mariners venturing into unfamiliar waters away from these routes is the ability to interpret the various quality indicators that are, or should be, on every chart.”
Now if these various quality indicators are of such poor quality (can not be trusted) why do they appear on a mandatory chart that is intended to support safety of navigation?
“Do I need to carry an official chart?
In NSW, NT and SA this is a requirement when going offshore or beyond
smooth waters”

[chala]

“Do I need to carry an official chart?
In NSW, NT and SA this is a requirement when going offshore or beyond
smooth waters”

Just to clarifies for the hundreds of sailors who have navigated Territory waters I do not knows of any one having be fined for not having an official chart. Lets hope that this Manager does not move up here.

[chala]

Originally Posted by Surfer Girl

The point is, you can't place a buoy on every rock, bit of reef or other submerged hazards

May be not but it can be reported in fact Hydro state “
INSTRUCTIONS
1.
1. Mariners are requested to notify the Hydrographer, Locked Bag 8801 Wollongong, NSW 2500 (Fax: 02-4221 8599), when new or suspected dangers to navigation are discovered, changes observed in aids to navigation, or corrections to publications are seen to be necessary.”
This applies to managers too.

[Surfer Girl]

chala, you are seriously missing the point...

It's doesn't matter about being fined or not fined, what is "implied" or not, what warnings may or may not be on a chart. It is about your safety and the safety of your crew and at the end of the day, that is your responsibility, nobody elses, not a chart's, not a GPS, not your depth sounder! Maritime law requires this of every skipper but again, more importantly if you don't develop this caution and prudence you will end up on a reef one day!

"1. Mariners are requested to notify the Hydrographer, Locked Bag 8801 Wollongong, NSW 2500 (Fax: 02-4221 8599), when new or suspected dangers to navigation are discovered, changes observed in aids to navigation, or corrections to publications are seen to be necessary.”
This applies to managers too. "

Mate, there are no hydrographic charts of inland dams first of all, and second of all, they would be a waste of time and money because the dam level fluctuates constantly - it can go up and down by 100 metres, therefore the shoreline is constantly changing, the bottom contours constantly changing, and fingers of land, rocks, etc there were above the water can now be submerged - are you getting the relevance now!?!

I don't understand where you're coming from? You asked a question and it has been answered by several people and answered well - and now you want to argue the point? You're not one of these people who doesn't take responsibility for their own actions and choices, are you chala?