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Old 30-05-2014, 19:17   #106
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Re: More Thoughts About Paper

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Originally Posted by DeepFrz View Post
Realize where Canibul is coming from. He was visited by a lightening bolt which blew out all of his electronics, if I remember correctly. What would you do in that situation? I mean besides wet yourself...

Having paper charts on board gives you a fighting chance in a situation like that.
Perhaps you do not understand where we have come from.

We have taken a direct lightning strike while on board and out in the boonies cruising with catastrophic damage to almost all electronics and electrical (including boiling dry batteries). We navigated just fine for 3 weeks with our planned backup systems (even our cameras have GPS's built into them). The thing most missed was our fixed depth sounder - we found using our handheld one to be not as convenient.

Neither of us wet ourselves and we did not need paper charts for a fighting chance.

I have not argued, and in fact supported it, that you or anyone else is less comfortable with electronic charting. I have argued against those people projecting the same on others as an absolute inviolable reality. It is not.

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Old 30-05-2014, 19:18   #107
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Re: More Thoughts About Paper

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Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post

And I should have clarified my intent of "new gen" to mean those NEWER generation of skippers who use ONLY chartplotters who DO NOT or HAVE NOT bothered to learn the BASIC PRINCIPLES of navigation.

Sorry about that.

Thanks for the clarification.

But, the same applies to paper chartists who never learn(t) the basic principles of navigation.


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Old 30-05-2014, 19:33   #108
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Re: More Thoughts About Paper

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Originally Posted by Canibul View Post
I can think of another difference. All Electronic devices WILL fail at some point. This a 100% certainty.

ink and paper will last for centuries.
I have had a paper chart blown out of the cockpit. Gone. It would take a LOT of wind to blow my chart plotter overboard.
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Old 30-05-2014, 19:43   #109
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Re: More Thoughts About Paper

I must admit this whole deterioration of the discussion amazes me. Why are there sides? Why isn't there just recognition that different boaters choose to use different methods for navigation? There is no right or wrong. You can either use or not use many things from sextants to compasses to GPS to Paper Charts to Chartplotters and Electronic Charts in many varieties to Radar to Sonar to Depth Sounders, to Weighted lines, to Night vision to search lights to a watch person stationed on the bow to a watch person in the pilothouse to binoculars to monocular's to other things I'm sure I've omitted.

Most of us use combinations of many resources. Some weigh more heavily toward the latest electronics and others more heavily to manual non-electronic methods. All the methods can work. All of them also depend on the training and experience of the people using them. And just because a person uses one does not mean they are incapable of using another or lack knowledge in the other.
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Old 30-05-2014, 19:51   #110
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Re: More Thoughts About Paper

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You are combining too things that are not necessarily tied together. You can use only electronics and still have learned the basic principles of navigation. So don't assume such.
I think you meant TWO...right? I am not making an assumption, I simply stated: "didn't...bother to learn the basic principles..." What's your point?

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Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
Thanks for the clarification.

But, the same applies to paper chartists who never learn(t) the basic principles of navigation.


Mark, you're welcome. and you're right. Perhaps BandB will get it.
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Old 30-05-2014, 20:12   #111
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Re: More Thoughts About Paper

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Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
I think you meant TWO...right? I am not making an assumption, I simply stated: "didn't...bother to learn the basic principles..." What's your point?



Mark, you're welcome. and you're right. Perhaps BandB will get it.
Yes, I meant two. You are correct. I get it for certain. Those who believe their way is the only way. Don't like it, but get it.

And your comment initially was, "I even doubt if any of the new gen skippers using only chartplotters (even though they may have paper on board - who knows if they even look at them?) are aware of the techniques of basic chart navigation." Then you revised "any" to "many" and then redefined "new gen" as those who use only chartplotters and haven't learned basic navigation techniques.

I can assure you there are plenty who use only paper and haven't learned basic navigation techniques and those who use both and haven't. My point is simple. Your ability as a seaman isn't defined by the equipment or resources you use. Do you agree with that point or dispute it?
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Old 30-05-2014, 20:45   #112
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Re: More Thoughts About Paper

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Originally Posted by darylat8750 View Post
I have had a paper chart blown out of the cockpit. Gone. It would take a LOT of wind to blow my chart plotter overboard.
I do not allow paper charts in the cockpit.
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Old 30-05-2014, 20:48   #113
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Re: More Thoughts About Paper

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Jump on an airplane or commercial ocean liner and ask to see them actively navigating on paper charts. If you find one that is, it will not be for long.
I live in a country that requires paper charts and publications unless I have an ECDIS.

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Most vessels of any kind in Canada have an obligation to carry and use official charts and publications and to keep them up to date. The chart carriage requirements are listed in the Charts and Nautical Publications Regulations, 1995 of the Canada Shipping Act.

CHS paper charts meet the requirements of the chart carriage regulations. CHS digital charts meet the requirements of the chart carriage regulations under certain circumstances. CHS Electronic Navigational Charts (ENCs) meet the requirements provided they are used with an Electronic Chart Display and Information System (ECDIS). CHS raster charts meet the requirements only if paper charts are carried and used as a backup.
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Old 30-05-2014, 21:04   #114
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Re: More Thoughts About Paper

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Whenever anyone tells me that they rely solely on paper charts for navigation, I just blink in confusion about why they are telling me this and go on with conversation.

Mark
Did I say that? No.
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Old 30-05-2014, 23:14   #115
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Re: More Thoughts About Paper

I've tried to tell you twice, Mark. That's enough.
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Old 31-05-2014, 02:11   #116
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Re: More Thoughts About Paper

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
OK, but that is the same truth for paper charts. And any danger bearing you derive from them. As well as any waypoints, routes, etc. There is no difference between the two. In fact, if you overlayed the radar on your electronic chart in these areas, you are far, far safer than paper and compass.
I'm a surveyor by training. I know how maps are made.
And so I know that they are usually more correct in a relative then in an absolute way. (Although that is getting better).
That means that if the chart says that a submerged rock is in a particular position relative to some other rocks I can see, I can assume that this is correct.

So I can use that to avoid that rock I can't see by establishing my position in relation to the rocks I do see. That is situational awareness. And it comes from interpreting what you see outside, and comparing it to your map.
I learned sailing in Brittany, before GPS. We would use bearings to enter bays and harbours all the time. We would use a piece of string to hunt for useful bearings and alignments, but often could just use those already printed on the chart. These were used by the locals as well, and so could be trusted.
That's situational awareness to me.

And yes it doesn't matter indeed if the map is electronic or paper.
I will happily take an ipad on deck and use that as maps. However my preferred way is here still a large paper map, that I put in a plastic. That's why I remarked earlier that I would love an iPad the size of half an admiralty chart (provided it was not to heave). Maybe something using electronic paper would work.

But don't rely on the "you are here" symbol on the plotter to base your situational awareness on. That is asking for trouble. Charts are often off by several 100s of meters in an absolute sense. That was what I meant with my remark. Being able to interpret your surroundings is very important. Relying on a cross on a plotter is bad.

I am all in favour of using electronics. I wouldn't want to live without modern instruments, and would certainly put a state of the art plotter if I ever end up buying a boat big enough to warrant it (I currently sail day sailers on lakes, and a 23 footer on the North Sea Coast...)
But I haven't forgotten the tricks I learned decades ago. So when entering a bay in Croatia two years ago I was happy that I had just studied the map, and decided to follow a depth contour in, relying on eyeballs and my depth sounder. And good I did. The plotter showed the boat solidly on land, and I'm sure that transferring a GPS position to a paper chart would have done that as well.
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Old 31-05-2014, 02:12   #117
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Re: More Thoughts About Paper

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I do not allow paper charts in the cockpit.
I love taking charts in to the cockpit. in fact, I have a sort of portable chart table exactly for that.
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Old 31-05-2014, 03:00   #118
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Re: More Thoughts About Paper

in certain emergency situations paper charts are invaluable



Personally I think the way to go these days is a MFD plotter that integrates with an iPad or similar. You can do your planning iPad which tends to be much easier to use than the plotter and then you transfer the route.
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Old 31-05-2014, 05:40   #119
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Talking Re: More Thoughts About Paper

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Originally Posted by darylat8750 View Post
I have had a paper chart blown out of the cockpit. Gone. It would take a LOT of wind to blow my chart plotter overboard.

Well, for starters, you didn't even have the option of taking your chart plotter into your cockpit in the first place so it's apples and oranges.
Lets throw your chart plotter and a paper chart overboard, then go back and retrieve them both and continue navigating.

Lets cut both into four equal pieces, and then use each piece to navigate.

I use GPS myself, of course. In a 40 year career in the commercial, military, and academic ocean communities I used Loran C, microwave navigation systems, and eventually GPS. The underwater tracking and navigation system that I was product manager for was used by a lot of Navies ( still is) and we had to integrate the subsurface navigation to whatever surface navigation was in use. People get a false sense of how stable and accurate their position is, as viewed on a GPS chartplotter. That software is taking positions that vary by plus minus 30 ft. and artificially nailing them down to a spot that has not actually been measured. The software uses Kalman and predictive filtering techniques to average out where you are. If you could look at the raw data, you'd be amazed how much your boat would be jumping around on the display without the filtering. In fact, I'd predict that if the average boater suddenly was limited to plotting just exactly where each individual GPS fix put him, he'd junk the system immediately as unreliable. But averge and filter that data and present it as stable and steady, and they buy it. Software makes it look steady, and that's artificial.

Some people won't leave the house without their phone in their hand. I don't carry one. Dependence upon electronics is a personal choice, and I choose to minimize it after a career in the undersea electronics business. If you're navigating with a chart and you lose your power, there you are. If you're navigating with an electronic system and you lose your power, where are you?

Oh, I know. You're where you run down to the galley and pull another thousand bucks worth of backup electronics out of your oven or microwave and get that up and running and THEN you know where you are, sort of.

Don't mind me. My father in law has just informed me that I'm a retrogrouch curmudgeon. And Mark is so easy to wind up on this....
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Old 31-05-2014, 06:05   #120
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Re: More Thoughts About Paper

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Did I say that? No.
I was speaking in general terms there - not directed at you or anything you wrote.

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