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Old 29-05-2014, 14:33   #76
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Re: More Thoughts About Paper

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Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
Typical of paper navigators that think everyone else is a moron.

I thought the line was "magenta" not "maroon"
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Old 29-05-2014, 15:04   #77
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Question Re: More Thoughts About Paper

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I thought the line was "magenta" not "maroon"
Veering away from marooness, given the boat motion from waves when beating north in your example, how much leeway/slop do you allow when using the hand bearing? Curious since I will be navigating that exact area in July. I like your idea since my plotter is below and I prefer to be on deck when sailing to windward.
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Old 29-05-2014, 15:16   #78
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Re: More Thoughts About Paper

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Originally Posted by IdoraKeeper View Post
Veering away from marooness, given the boat motion from waves when beating north in your example, how much leeway/slop do you allow when using the hand bearing? Curious since I will be navigating that exact area in July. I like your idea since my plotter is below and I prefer to be on deck when sailing to windward.
As long as your handbearing compass reads between 123M and 131M when you get the bearing on the light, you are fine.

This channel is less well travelled than Miners Channel, where I avoid close calls with the shallows east of Sidney Spit with a single danger bearing (NMT 278M)on the light on Sidney Spit.
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Old 29-05-2014, 15:26   #79
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Re: More Thoughts About Paper

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As long as your handbearing compass reads between 123M and 131M when you get the bearing on the light, you are fine.

This channel is less well travelled than Miners Channel, where I avoid close calls with the shallows east of Sidney Spit with a single danger bearing (NMT 278M)on the light on Sidney Spit.
Thanks, that's useful info. Its too wet to paint. I think I'll go play with the charts.
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Old 29-05-2014, 18:17   #80
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Re: More Thoughts About Paper

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
I prefer to use an nav aid in front of my boat. I can use anything conspicuous that is on the chart and visible.

On the chart I set the limits for the bearings: In this case Not More Than 131M and Not Less Than 123M. As I go through this tight spot, I take occasional bearings with a handbearing compass on the light ahead and stay within those limits. I would also watch the deep sounder.

This Luddite used OpenCPN to get the bearings and a photo editor to add the text before uploading to my pbase account.

At one point in my career I was the Supervisor of Technology and Learning in very large school system. My major interest was the appropriate use of technology; I am very wary of the technological imperative.
Now I understand what you mean. I was thinking something completely different from your original post - along the lines of a dynamic bearing from the boat and not pre-plotted bearings between fixed objects.

However, our chartplotter allows those bearing lines to be made. Also, I don't see the difference between making them on (electronic) raster charts vs. vector charts.

Our chartplotter also projects the boat's heading and COG onto the charts. I don't see how stepping out of the cockpit, putting a hand bearing compass up to your eye and sighting onto a specific point is preserving your situational awareness, while taking a 1/2 second glance moving your eyes 30* over to the chartplotter (with an actual graphic representation of reality) is not preserving situational awareness.

Frankly, I think you have it completely backwards there and I would put the chartplotter in much more favor of retaining situational awareness.

With the boat's heading and COG projected, I don't see the reason for plotting "danger bearings" - that is instantaneously and easily determined with a simple glance. Situational awareness encompasses everything on the boat, including the course, boat heading and COG. I think transitioning modalities between interpreting lines on paper, using a hand bearing compass, and visualizing the real situation is much more error prone and dangerous than simply keeping your eyes on the real situation and glancing once in a while to a plotter that is showing you easily understood composite data dynamically interacting with the boat.

To be clear, I straddle the technology curve - personal computers were not even invented and available until I was in college. I'm neither a luddite, nor a young-un laughing at geezers. My boating experience also spans these generations - I am fully competent with analog and digital methods (actually, less competent with digital). I also had a career that involved flexibility and evolution with technology as a prerequisite for survival.

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Old 29-05-2014, 19:34   #81
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Re: More Thoughts About Paper

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@N58 i tried seaclear also but could not get it to quilt the charts like ocpn. I had to right click and get a new chartg every time i zoomed. Did you find a way around this?

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SeaClear is raster presentation of paper NOAA chart scans. When you reach the edge of a chart, double click in the margin and you will be on the next chart. Alt click and select different scale. If you set a rout on a large map, the saved rout will appear on the zoomed in charts. I initially loaded all 2272 NOAA charts and set up my SeaClear to see them.

I found that quilting Vector charts put a hurt on my computer. (Open CPN).

There was some discussion on monitor power in this thread somewhere. I too researched monitors. The makers are engaged in "monitor wars" much like the HP battles in 60's muscle cars. They totally don't care how much power is consumed int e quest for a perfect & large picture. It is very difficult to find small and/or low power monitors. Most are 20 to 50 watts and too big to use as well as fragile. I was about to give up when I hit a lucky search. What we boaters want is the miniature monitors they make for mobile equipment. (think airline seats & auto dashboard GPS) I bought one here Xenarc Technologies - 800YV - 8" LED LCD Monitor w/ VGA & AV Inputs They are low to very high screen resolution. Full-on & bright is 14 watts. Less with LED back lighting low. It has several video input and audio input options. (so it can be used with a CD or DVD player.) Mine is installed at the binnacle as a repeater on our SIMRAD. Lower magnetic compass interference; small size. Simrad wants 3500 for a repeater. This is 1/15th of that. They were talking about a marinized unit but not available when I needed it.

the Xenarc started out on a 1" RAM mount alone but I later formed a Lexan box for it. (pictures)

I am also working on a hand size mini-computer on UNIX that can run the open source nav software.
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Old 29-05-2014, 20:21   #82
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Re: More Thoughts About Paper

I like the xenarc box!! Is it really sunlight readable? Been running a pc's in my cars for years but with the cheap lilliput 8" touch screens.
Thanks for the seaclear tip. What about seaclear keeps you using it over opencpn? If i may ask.

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Old 30-05-2014, 07:38   #83
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Re: More Thoughts About Paper

Another option is a Panasonic Toughbook remote monitor like this: Used Panasonic Toughbook CF-08 CF-08TX1BX1E Wireless Display

We picked up a refurbished one for $500USD. It connects wirelessly to your computer using remote desktop, and you can completely control every aspect of your computer and any program it is running from it. It is 10.5", weatherproof, very daylight readable, runs 11hrs on a battery charge, and can be run continuously or recharged from a cigarette-type power adaptor.

We got ours over 7 years ago, so I don't know if they still make them. If not, perhaps it has been succeeded by a newer model?

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Old 30-05-2014, 09:35   #84
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Re: More Thoughts About Paper

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Our chartplotter also projects the boat's heading and COG onto the charts. I don't see how stepping out of the cockpit, putting a hand bearing compass up to your eye and sighting onto a specific point is preserving your situational awareness, while taking a 1/2 second glance moving your eyes 30* over to the chartplotter (with an actual graphic representation of reality) is not preserving situational awareness.
The graphical representation might not accurately represent reality. I've on occasion had a plotter put me solidly on land, where as a quick look around told me differently...

It is on reason I'll still use old fashioned methods like looking for an alignment, or following a depth contour to enter a bay or inlet.
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Old 30-05-2014, 10:19   #85
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Re: More Thoughts About Paper

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The graphical representation might not accurately represent reality. I've on occasion had a plotter put me solidly on land, where as a quick look around told me differently...
That seems to be a regular occurrence when I anchor in Princess Bay, Wallace Island, in the Gulf Islands. My Mark I eyeball and a lead line tell me otherwise as well.

That might be a one of the reasons I distrust chartplotters, especially for close work.
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Old 30-05-2014, 16:01   #86
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Re: More Thoughts About Paper

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The graphical representation might not accurately represent reality. I've on occasion had a plotter put me solidly on land, where as a quick look around told me differently...
OK, but that is the same truth for paper charts. And any danger bearing you derive from them. As well as any waypoints, routes, etc. There is no difference between the two. In fact, if you overlayed the radar on your electronic chart in these areas, you are far, far safer than paper and compass.

I didn't mean to imply that electronic charts were dead accurate, just that when you glance at one, you have a complete situational synthesis of all available data in a uni-modal, easily comprehended presentation. That is not the same when using a paper chart, hand-bearing compass, GPS COG data, protractor and pencil.

Distrusting chartplotters, while having complete faith in paper charts doesn't make sense. To then make distinctions between eyeballs/lead line and chartplotters is a non-sequitor.

Nobody has presented any solid reasoning why paper charts are better other than they personally have never learned to get comfortable using electronic charting (actually a perfectly valid personal reason to use paper), or to present non-sequitor deflections like one must use their eyes and lead lines in areas where charts are not accurate (Really? A lead line? You don't even trust your electronic depth?).

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Old 30-05-2014, 16:13   #87
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Re: More Thoughts About Paper

Why is it that the onus is on people who use electronic charting to prove they are not simpletons with their head buried in a chartplotter slavishly following a magic magenta line believing everything is a video game?

Is it so difficult for others to believe that those people are also looking around, watching the depths, making sure their charts represent fairly accurately the land around them?

In other words, can anyone give a single example where good navigation is any worse using a chartplotter than paper charts? I can give examples where relying on paper charts can be dangerous or provide much less, or worse, navigation information at times when one really needs it.

Go ahead, bring up that case where someone plotted an electronic route right over a reef. I will match that with 5 examples of people coming to grief using only paper charts. Maybe I will match it with 10 - the examples are so abundantly available (people did wreck boats before electronic devices were invented).

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Old 30-05-2014, 16:47   #88
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Re: More Thoughts About Paper

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OK, but that is the same truth for paper charts.
No, it isn't.

Paper charts don't put you anywhere.

That is exactly, precisely the difference.

I couldn't have provided a better example if I'd written you a script.
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Old 30-05-2014, 16:52   #89
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Re: More Thoughts About Paper

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No, it isn't.

Paper charts don't put you anywhere.

That is exactly, precisely the difference.

I couldn't have provided a better example if I'd written you a script.
See my previous post questioning why electronic chart users are considered morons.

And consider the post by jackdale about taking danger bearings off of paper charts.

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Old 30-05-2014, 17:03   #90
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Re: More Thoughts About Paper

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No, it isn't.

Paper charts don't put you anywhere.

That is exactly, precisely the difference.

I couldn't have provided a better example if I'd written you a script.
I can think of another difference. All Electronic devices WILL fail at some point. This a 100% certainty.

ink and paper will last for centuries.
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