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Old 27-05-2014, 22:48   #31
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Re: More Thoughts About Paper

"That's how I learned" doesn't cut it in my book.

I ran a contracting business. I hired carpenters. Many, many of them.

Some had been trained by the union, some on non-union framing crews. Some came up wearing boots and hardhats, some wore tennis shoes.

Some were trained with the guards on the skillsaw, some were trained to wire it back or remove it.

I've seen guy who were trained without a guard jam skillsaws and make them kick back, right across their legs, when ordered to use skillsaws with guards, resulting in serious injuries.

But I never accepted the argument that "I learned to cut without the guard, and it's not safe when I use a guard!", I always insisted that if that's the case, start over, and learn to cut safely with the guard. Oh, and tomorrow, wear boots or don't come to work.

Applying my logic to charts, it becomes "if you learned on electronics, that's fine, now learn another skill, and get comfortable with paper, too."

We all used skillsaws. But we all carried 8 and 10 point handsaws, too, and we know how to use them. Because sometimes, the power tools just don't do the job. Other times, I can lay out, cut the board, pour coffee, unwrap my sandwich and eat three bites while you figure out which button needs to be punched and get the lasers set up.
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Old 28-05-2014, 00:39   #32
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Re: More Thoughts About Paper

I'm with Dockhead on this one. Navigating the archepelagos here in the Baltic with only a plotter (I have the newest Furuno MFD) is challenging and time-consuming.

There are tons of wonderful channels that are not marked and provide someof he most delightful sailing (not to mention shortcuts).

Glad you hear you're finding your first Baltic sailing experience to be great. I been saying for a long time that if we had Med weather in the Baltic, this would be the world's premier cruising area.

What's not to like? No tides to speak of, no swell, the natives are very friendly and extremely good-looking (eye candy is not to be sneered at), you can tank and drink the water virtually everywhere without conditioning, the food is good and (compared to the rest of the world) the marinas are cheap.

Add in the phenomena called the "light nights" , where in the summer time, the sun rises at around 4am and sets at 10:30 pm and the nights never get truly dark makes for fantastic sailing. As you head a bit further north in the Bothnian Bay, the twilight nights get even shorter. Believe me, when the sunset last for more than an hour - it's heaven.

Dockhead - make sure you're on the water in late June. Here the nights will be the shortest and the sailing fantastic. Indulge yourself and take the dogwatch, load up on coffee and enjoy the sunrise - not to be missed.

I crossed from Bornholm last year, gliding along on a broad reach with around a 12 knot wind. Autopilot on. The experience was magical. I woke my wife (who didn't mind when she saw what she came up to), popped some rolls in the oven and the combination of the morning and smell of coffee and baking bread made for a perfect day.

In late august, go to sweden - the Swedes go mad, eating crayfish and drinking akvavit for a weekend. When you're in Denmark, visit either the island of Anholt or Læsø. Come in early and go round the fishing boats. They fish langoustines and you can buy 5 kg freshly caught langoustines for around $20. We do this several times per season - breakfast is langoustines, champagne and fresh baked bread

Oh decedence!
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Old 28-05-2014, 02:33   #33
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Re: More Thoughts About Paper

OK
Well

At this point I have to say the lack is in the electronics that you are using.
Last week I laid out a detailed course around Menorca on CPN and broke it into sections. There are things that a computer can do that dedicated chart plotters cannot, and I took full advantage of that. I run OPENCpn on an Acer small screen netbook with a USB GPS Receiver NaviLock NL-302U. (As recommended and used in anger by by boatman61~thanks Phil)

NOw Im brand new at this particular program and require a lot of practice and learning of the 'tricks bells and whistles' but its straight forward enough to play with. I downloaded cm93 files for 2009 and 2011 and a few others from the web, and have a DETAILED area map. I also have GRIB incorporated within the program and a few other things.

This marks a departure for me from paper charts for two reasons. One the cost, and two, I also print out large area maps and smaller sectional maps so technically, I am not 'paperless'. I do not go 'offshore' more than 60 miles from a coast, and I carry 2 gps units. A handheld and the boat fixed GPS/plotter. Now, with OpenCPN, I will be carrying 3.

I personally have NOT tried this in anger yet.... Ive driven around Wales using the mapping software and its accurate to 4 meters. Ive matched plotted courses with paper maps and its as good as with the added advantage of more accurate math for magnetic variance, wind and tide calculation. Ive the reported success of small trips undertaken by a colleague as being accurate in an areas that I am NOT familiar with but plotted in the UK on OPENCPN.

Im not advocating this computer program for use. Im experimenting with it to see if it can be reliable. To see if I can gain confidence in it.

So far so good.
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Old 28-05-2014, 07:31   #34
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Re: More Thoughts About Paper

Wait until you discover how to overlay google earth images in OCPN and to make actual GE charts. Try doing that with paper. In fact, one could make the argument that NOT having this ability is a safety concern…

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Old 28-05-2014, 07:33   #35
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Re: More Thoughts About Paper

Quote:
Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
There are tons of wonderful channels that are not marked and provide someof he most delightful sailing (not to mention shortcuts).
Are you saying that there are channels that are marked on paper charts but not the electronic versions? If not, what is the difference between using paper or electronic for these channels?

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Old 28-05-2014, 07:39   #36
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Re: More Thoughts About Paper

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammer Six View Post
"That's how I learned" doesn't cut it in my book.

I ran a contracting business. I hired carpenters. Many, many of them.

Some had been trained by the union, some on non-union framing crews. Some came up wearing boots and hardhats, some wore tennis shoes.

Some were trained with the guards on the skillsaw, some were trained to wire it back or remove it.

I've seen guy who were trained without a guard jam skillsaws and make them kick back, right across their legs, when ordered to use skillsaws with guards, resulting in serious injuries.

But I never accepted the argument that "I learned to cut without the guard, and it's not safe when I use a guard!", I always insisted that if that's the case, start over, and learn to cut safely with the guard. Oh, and tomorrow, wear boots or don't come to work.

Applying my logic to charts, it becomes "if you learned on electronics, that's fine, now learn another skill, and get comfortable with paper, too."

We all used skillsaws. But we all carried 8 and 10 point handsaws, too, and we know how to use them. Because sometimes, the power tools just don't do the job. Other times, I can lay out, cut the board, pour coffee, unwrap my sandwich and eat three bites while you figure out which button needs to be punched and get the lasers set up.
Wrong example and reasoning. A better one would be modern draftsmen - they do everything with CAD and do not actually draw on paper at a table anymore. They have no problem doing the same, and much better work, than those in the past. Like electronic charts, these drawings hide details as they are zoomed out and bring them back in as they zoom in. The draftsman has this spacial and temporal awareness and uses it to his advantage.

My stepfather was an old-time architect whose career overlapped both generations. He complained bitterly that the electronic drawings did not show everything, could not be used for big-picture planning, and could lead one into making serious mistakes, etc. The new guys just smiled and shook their heads whenever he would go on that rant.

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Old 28-05-2014, 08:29   #37
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Re: More Thoughts About Paper

Oh, Dockhead, so it isn't paper/vs/electronic that you object to, but "big/vs/small".

I can certainly agree with that. Zooming in and out is nonsense. Very handy for the macro view but for sure not the same as spreading out a big chart and getting the whole picture.

And even on the laptop with the high-res screen, somehow, it always looks like chicken scratches instead of more detail. I suppose you could try an 11" wide printer (there are a number of them out there) and printing two 11x17 (A3 is that?) sheets, which at least would give you a 17x22 chart with just one seam?

"Hey, skipper, what's that sixty inch monitor in your cockpit for?!"
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Old 28-05-2014, 08:39   #38
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Re: More Thoughts About Paper

This problem was solved in the movie "Brazil"…

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Old 28-05-2014, 08:48   #39
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Re: More Thoughts About Paper

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
My stepfather was an old-time architect whose career overlapped both generations. He complained bitterly that the electronic drawings did not show everything, could not be used for big-picture planning, and could lead one into making serious mistakes, etc. The new guys just smiled and shook their heads whenever he would go on that rant.

Mark
Not only that, at some stage he would have been sidelined from being an architect, sacked and put out to pasture before his time.

I am from a different generation from many on this forum even though by only a few years. We didnt have computers while I was at school. But I sure as hell learned when the first PCs became available. My whole career has then been on computer.

I have not written a business letter by hand ever. Before computers I had a stenographer. I have not written a long hand letter to a friend (except romantic cards) for 20 years. I could not physically write a 1,000 word essay by hand... It would fall off, my fingers crippled with cramps. I could not write a film script by hand, I couldnt write an advertisement of 100 words by hand. Frankly, I can't write by hand anymore.
I look at an atlas on the computer, I look at photos on a computer - the thought of slowly turning a page and replacing the slipped photo bores me, and now theres too many photos to look at anyway, an album would be 1,000 pages.
I don't write a spreadsheet by hand, I dont calculate with a pencil, i don't use a recipe from a book, i don't ring my friends from a phone but use the computer, i dont know my friends addresses as I have no need to know them, nor their phone numbers, i dont even need to know their email addresses anymore they are just automatically there.
I dont look at a gauge on my boat I look at a readout, i dont look at the Jabsco toilet manual as I flick the PDF onto the screen. I dont have a watch, I look at my phone, I dont have a clock I look at the screen.

I read papaer books because I am too scabby to pay to download and the paper books are free at the bookswaps... But they are dwindeling... Theres fewer and fewer new books. Cruisers use Kindle, iPad and Android (whatever that is!). The Kindle users wont read paper books anymore they are too cumbersome, attract damp, smell, weight a ton and take up huge amounts of room. A book wont let you cross reference instantly to the internet but a computer does.

When I worked in an office when I was 21 the first computer was a Wang. It sat in a glass partition in the middle of the room and the Wang Operator wore a white coat, was female, have never worked in the typist pool and was, invariably, Asian. All it did was Form Letters you would write on the file from the name and address and FL1 or FL2 and at the end of the day the Wanger would have a pile of files and your Form Letters to pick up and sign... She was so important that she never spoke to us, too important to deliver the files back to our desks. When the Wang wouldn't wang strange skinny, pimpled men would come from the "Other Building" and do things to it while our pile of files piled higher. Would the world stop with the cessation of FL1s and FL2s hitting the snailmail?

Then we all got PCs and the Wang Operator was no more.

Since we were Wangless the pimples skinny guys never came around anymore either because the PCs never broke down... Except if a coffee cup filled with rum splattered it.

Now households have not one computer that doesnt break down but multiple computers. Even the bloody fridge has a computer in the door!

Now medicinal tablets has chips in them connected to the iPad so your doctor knows when you missed a pill.
The doctor visits his patient in hospital where their very lives are computerised, extinguished if the "Machine that Goes Bing" doesn't. His diagnosis is computer based, he can run a genome on the exact form of cancer you have and the computer will spit out an exact DNA modified drug to precisely kill your individual cancer cell. This is not the future, this is NOW and it was done in the UK last week!

When you fly to your boat the 747 can not be operated without a computer. A fighter jet can not fly unless its computer stabilised - the pilot just isnt good enough, fast enough... His life and those on the ground have a life and death relationship to a computer.

When you go to the supermarket you dont have to blame the stacker kid for not having restocked the milk as there is always stock because the computer has told the stacker kid when to do it, how and with what precise product.


Redundancy of computers, power supplies and peripherals has been stock standard for decades. If one breaks down theres another.

But
If you ask a supermarket manager to oder manually he could not do it.
If you ask a business owner to re-employ stenographers he would go broke.
If you ask the Air Force to do a bombing run without computer lots of innocent people would die.
If you ask a Kindle reader to go back to paper they will find it slow, uncomfortable and their comprehension poorer.

If you ask a kid to chuck his computer and smart phone away he will be a basket case without friends, social contacts, even without his Facebook based school timetable.


If you run a boat without computer, without AIS, without electronic safety you will be more dangerous, fatally so...


The future has arrived and those people, like Marks hard working step dad Architect, or my father who suffered something similar, are dinosaurs who are chucked on the scrap heap earlier than what they deserve... Their delusion is that of so many as they grow older. Its sad for them, demoralising for their families. But worse, much worse is that the new guys just shake their heads and smile. We know we are safer, more accurate in our navigation, and enjoy our sailing all for more for computers.


Mark (da other one)
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Old 28-05-2014, 09:06   #40
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Re: More Thoughts About Paper

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Are you saying that there are channels that are marked on paper charts but not the electronic versions? If not, what is the difference between using paper or electronic for these channels?

Mark
No, any channel that can be seen on a paper chart can be seen on a screen. But (and you can now ask dockhead for confirmation) sailing through the archepelago is much easier when palnning the route if you use paper. some apparently usable channels, dead end. Some follow torturous routes around rocks, small island and youname. Grasping if a channel is usable is much easier on paper, than having to zoom in and out, in and out, in and out.

i'm not a Luddite - I have a chartplotter and ue whenever I sail - but I still like paper for gaining an overview.

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Old 28-05-2014, 09:41   #41
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Re: More Thoughts About Paper

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Oh, Dockhead, so it isn't paper/vs/electronic that you object to, but "big/vs/small".

I can certainly agree with that. Zooming in and out is nonsense. Very handy for the macro view but for sure not the same as spreading out a big chart and getting the whole picture.

And even on the laptop with the high-res screen, somehow, it always looks like chicken scratches instead of more detail. I suppose you could try an 11" wide printer (there are a number of them out there) and printing two 11x17 (A3 is that?) sheets, which at least would give you a 17x22 chart with just one seam?

"Hey, skipper, what's that sixty inch monitor in your cockpit for?!"
Of course I don't object to electronic navigation -- I LOVE marine electronics and electronic navigation. I am in no way a Luddite, as I've said over and over again!

And there are thing you can do (and others have said this as well) with plotters that you can't do with paper -- the most powerful of which is to instantly see where you are on the chart.

I've heard the comments about CPN on a big monitor being different from chart plotters, and my mind is open about that. I have CPN (but no Baltic charts for it -- anyone have any recommendations?). I can imagine that with the right chart (raster) and the large high rez monitor, and with the right tools (electronic protractor), it could work like paper.

But if all you've got is a plotter, even a good one, it won't do the business in a complicated place like where I am now. You need a way to see and visualize the whole passage.
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Old 28-05-2014, 12:53   #42
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Re: More Thoughts About Paper

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Of course I don't object to electronic navigation -- I LOVE marine electronics and electronic navigation. I am in no way a Luddite, as I've said over and over again!
Prove it! Go buy some more electronics - none of us think you have enough yet!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I've heard the comments about CPN on a big monitor being different from chart plotters, and my mind is open about that.
It is not just OCPN - it is any computer-based charting application that is so much better than a chart plotter. Even the most fancy, up-to-date high-tech chart plotters still feel like using a 1980's Commodore PET compared to the past-generation of computer programs - let alone the most current generation.

Chart plotters are completely cumbersome and antiquated. All of them, compared to even a rather simple, open-source program like OCPN. Compared to more fully-developed programs like Coastal Explorer or Nobeltec, they are steam-technology.

OCPN, though is on the fastest trajectory (and is free). It has been amazing watching how far and how fast that program has developed in the past couple of years.

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Old 28-05-2014, 20:50   #43
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Re: More Thoughts About Paper

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Opencpn and a mouse and "bob's your uncle". My boat has a garmin 4212. 12inch screen no touch or mouse input. Incredably cumbersome to operate once used to open cpn and the way it zooms with the mouse wheel is fantastic. I use an optical mouse on my thigh and have accurate fast zoom control. I am taking the garmin out and selling it. Installing a 12v pc to replace the laptop. And yes giant screen sorta 17 inch touch screen. But will still us the mouse for zoom.

Everyone should try opencpn.

Andy

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We run both Open CPN and SEACLEAR. The use of a mouse is great. Hard to imagine the nav copmputer guys (RayMarine, Garmen etc. aren't a bit nervous with functional stuff available for 1/10th the price that is easier to operate. Simrad guy told me the computers they use are years behind what you can get for a couple hundred dollars at best buy AND that they are power sucks.
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Old 28-05-2014, 22:52   #44
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Re: More Thoughts About Paper

I just went through a long conversation over an email list about computers on boats, and they definitely have an Achilles' heel, power.

If it's not built around a 12 volt power supply, converting battery power from the house battery to 120 and back to what the computer draws is an enormous drain, in part because the double conversion is inherently extremely inefficient.

If it is built from the ground up to be a boat computer, the monitor will still be one of the three biggest drains on the house battery. On every boat in our fleet except one, an Apple laptop, which is one of the most efficient battery designs, will drain the house battery in less than three hours when the engine isn't running.

I've seen exactly one boat that has a computer on it for navigation with a reasonable 12 volt setup. That boat's system has both a 12 volt power supply for the computer and a 12 volt supply for the monitor, and the monitor is modified to draw low power. The two of them together still draw 36W. That boat also has five Group 34 batteries in the house bank, in part because of the navigation station.

Using a laptop with a GPS puck for navigation is one of those things that sounds great when you first hear it, but the details make it a fairly expensive proposition. Running a computer on a sailboat constantly (which is one of the main benefits of a plotter in the first place) is not as simple as buying an inverter and a puck, downloading some free software and plugging her in.

Turning a laptop on and off for navigation means one thing: you need paper.
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Old 28-05-2014, 23:30   #45
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Re: More Thoughts About Paper

@N58 i tried seaclear also but could not get it to quilt the charts like ocpn. I had to right click and get a new chartg every time i zoomed. Did you find a way around this?

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