Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 26-05-2014, 15:31   #16
Moderator
 
weavis's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: SEVILLE - MALLORCA
Posts: 10,137
Send a message via Skype™ to weavis
Re: More Thoughts About Paper

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
I would like to do a survey of paper Vs Electronic with age as the indicator.
Fair enough
My paper charts are very old............
__________________

__________________
- Never test how deep the water is with both feet -
10% of conflicts are due to different opinions. 90% by the tone of voice.
Raise your words, not your voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder.
weavis is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 26-05-2014, 15:32   #17
Moderator
 
weavis's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: SEVILLE - MALLORCA
Posts: 10,137
Send a message via Skype™ to weavis
Re: More Thoughts About Paper

Quote:
Originally Posted by weavis View Post
Fair enough
My paper charts are very old............
ok.. mid 50s.
__________________

__________________
- Never test how deep the water is with both feet -
10% of conflicts are due to different opinions. 90% by the tone of voice.
Raise your words, not your voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder.
weavis is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 26-05-2014, 15:35   #18
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,750
Re: More Thoughts About Paper

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
"I am sailing in the Baltic, for the first time in my life without paper charts. It is awful!! "
Dockhead, are you locked into some proprietary charting software which cleverly will not allow you to print the charts, or even print the screen, in order to enforce copyright? Or some other nonsense?

I've yet to figure out how electronics can match paper when the driver says "Everybody on the rail!" and you're holding a paper chart there, trying to plan ahead. Seems like most of the silicon critters would just up and die, not to mention, skip off to Davy Jones' locker.

But did they lock you out from printing? (I'm sure you've got printers on that boat!)
Printing won't help, because just like viewing on the screen, you have a choice of either seeing your whole route, or seeing obstacles. Never both!
__________________
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 26-05-2014, 15:42   #19
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,750
Re: More Thoughts About Paper

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
I guess I don't have problems using vector charts on a computer/chartplotter for planning. Zoomed out, I draw a rough route. I then zoom in until the next level of detail is available and adjust, or add to, the route's waypoints as needed. Then I zoom in and run the route to see if there are any small scale obstacles I need to be aware of. This is natural for me and takes far less time than plotting a route on paper and transferring it to a computer/chartplotter. I also don't seem to lose any situational awareness of the chart when it is zoomed out - my brain understands that there are hidden details (and appreciates the fact that they are not cluttering up the larger picture).

Mark
This would work in some waters, but certainly not in others, like for example the Baltic. There is no such thing as a "rough route" in waters like these -- you must have the detail in order to find a rational way through.

Sailing directions obviously help, but I sailed 7 extra miles today because I had no paper and was relying on sailing directions and trial and error with the plotter. Because I couldn't see a better route for yachts on the plotter no matter how hard I tried. I perceived it only by watching other yachts on AIS, and kicked myself, because I was already committed to the ship channel.

I think if you had a gigantic enough monitor and the right software tools, all this could be overcome. But on an 8" B&G Zeus -- fuggedaboutit.
__________________
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 26-05-2014, 15:57   #20
Moderator
 
weavis's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: SEVILLE - MALLORCA
Posts: 10,137
Send a message via Skype™ to weavis
Re: More Thoughts About Paper

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
This would work in some waters, but certainly not in others, like for example the Baltic. There is no such thing as a "rough route" in waters like these -- you must have the detail in order to find a rational way through.

Sailing directions obviously help, but I sailed 7 extra miles today because I had no paper and was relying on sailing directions and trial and error with the plotter. Because I couldn't see a better route for yachts on the plotter no matter how hard I tried. I perceived it only by watching other yachts on AIS, and kicked myself, because I was already committed to the ship channel.

I think if you had a gigantic enough monitor and the right software tools, all this could be overcome. But on an 8" B&G Zeus -- fuggedaboutit.
Perhaps if you used OPENCPN on your computer and saw the bigger picture.
Thats what Ive been doing lately..
__________________
- Never test how deep the water is with both feet -
10% of conflicts are due to different opinions. 90% by the tone of voice.
Raise your words, not your voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder.
weavis is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 26-05-2014, 16:00   #21
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,750
Re: More Thoughts About Paper

Quote:
Originally Posted by weavis View Post
Perhaps if you used OPENCPN on your computer and saw the bigger picture.
Thats what Ive been doing lately..
With a large monitor and a raster chart -- maybe.

With vector charts on regular chart plotters -- forget the "bigger picture". It ain't available.
__________________
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 26-05-2014, 16:06   #22
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 209
Re: More Thoughts About Paper

Opencpn and a mouse and "bob's your uncle". My boat has a garmin 4212. 12inch screen no touch or mouse input. Incredably cumbersome to operate once used to open cpn and the way it zooms with the mouse wheel is fantastic. I use an optical mouse on my thigh and have accurate fast zoom control. I am taking the garmin out and selling it. Installing a 12v pc to replace the laptop. And yes giant screen sorta 17 inch touch screen. But will still us the mouse for zoom.

Everyone should try opencpn.

Andy

Sent from my SCH-I415 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
wellin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-05-2014, 16:07   #23
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Atlantic ICW 29N/81W
Boat: Beneteau Oceanis 36CC, now sold
Posts: 817
Re: More Thoughts About Paper

I wrote a reply once and then lost it pressing the wrong button, but to repeat it it said our brand new Garmin kit has an extra feature available on an additional plug in 'Vision' card and which has much more underwater detail and above water views from the basic charts, It also has a 'best route between two waypoints' creation feature based on your stated water and air draught boat dimensions and personal preferences for how far offshore you prefer to keep to as a minimum. I have yet to use this feature in anger but think it will do the initial job of planning after which I will use Mk1 eyeballs and the zoom buttons along the way if I think all is not quite right and it might be about to miss something like a key navigation buoy or a dangerous rocky patch along the way. Would that help?/ Our plotter is a 10 inch one mind so a tiny bit bigger. Additionally we have openCPN running on a laptop with a 17 inch screen and both raster and vector charts loaded, for the USA at least, and this lappie is in the shade below at the chart table away from problems of reading in sunlight.

We do also have paper charts and we can also print from the screen on OpenCPN to have some cockpit map helpers for critical bits.
__________________
Robin3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-05-2014, 17:25   #24
cruiser

Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,130
Re: More Thoughts About Paper

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
I would like to do a survey of paper Vs Electronic with age as the indicator.
I don't see how to do it, the polls here will only allow one question.
__________________
Jammer Six is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-05-2014, 17:29   #25
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Caribbean
Boat: Oyster 66
Posts: 973
Re: More Thoughts About Paper

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
With a large monitor and a raster chart -- maybe.

With vector charts on regular chart plotters -- forget the "bigger picture". It ain't available.
That's the key. Decent equipment. I do the route planning on the PC not the plotter. Big screen, high power and high res and using MaxSea, super fast. I can zoom in and out 2 or 3 chart levels in seconds. No fumbling with paper, no flipping between sheets, no unfolding and folding, tearing and water soaking. No ruler or divider or pencil. Simple, fast,efficient.

30 kg of paper is now wrapped up under the bunk. Soon to be on Ebay if there is a market.
__________________
poiu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-05-2014, 17:34   #26
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: More Thoughts About Paper

Quote:
Originally Posted by poiu View Post
30 kg of paper is now wrapped up under the bunk. Soon to be on Ebay if there is a market.
Good luck with that. I tried to GIVE away complete sets of charts from Maine to the Bahamas, the entire Eastern Caribe, across Venezuela, Colombia and Panama and up to Mexico.

Nobody wanted them, so after 3 months of trying at swap meets, etc I threw them in the dumpster.

Mark
__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-05-2014, 19:37   #27
Registered User
 
Nicholson58's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Live aboard
Boat: Camper & Nicholson58 Ketch - ROXY Traverse City, Michigan No.668283
Posts: 3,466
Images: 83
Re: More Thoughts About Paper

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
I would like to do a survey of paper Vs Electronic with age as the indicator.
- And that would prove that only the 'kids' are dense enough to drive a car off a cliff 'cause the GPS told them to?
Attached Images
 
__________________
Nicholson58 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-05-2014, 19:47   #28
Registered User
 
Stu Jackson's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Cowichan Bay, BC (Maple Bay Marina)
Posts: 6,387
Re: More Thoughts About Paper

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin3 View Post
Do you have two wives when driving in the car too?
Not two, three! The wife, the x-wife and Siri.

Never could figure out why they wouldn't agree though.
__________________
Stu Jackson
Catalina 34 #224 (1986) C34IA Secretary
Cowichan Bay, BC, (Maple Bay Marina) SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)
Stu Jackson is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 27-05-2014, 19:54   #29
Senior Cruiser
 
jackdale's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 5,048
Images: 1
Re: More Thoughts About Paper

Quote:
Originally Posted by weavis View Post
Fair enough
My paper charts are very old............
I collect old charts.

My oldest is 1604 - West Africa. I would not use it to sail

My 1859 chart of the Gulf and San Juan Islands is really quite good.



It hangs in my den of antiquity.
__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Ocean Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
ASA 201, 203,204, 205, 206, 214
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
jackdale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-05-2014, 22:04   #30
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Paradise
Boat: Various
Posts: 2,359
Re: More Thoughts About Paper

One factor I would add in. That is how you learn. For those who have used paper charts for decades, the comfort with them is expected. However, we learned on electronic charts and equipment. We were trained on them from the outset. We also learned all the capabilities of the equipment we had.

Now quality of software and hardware is also important. We do have large screens and we even put our charts on large televisions at times just to look them over. For us paper charts have never been a primary tool, just something we occasionally enjoy looking at.

Eventually it will evolve as paper vs. computer has in every area and we'll have a new generation that only thinks of paper charts as something of earlier times.
__________________

__________________
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . . doug86 Navigation 464 05-07-2011 05:18
Damn Paper Charts . . . I Hate Paper Charts ! off-the-grid Navigation 84 20-03-2011 16:20



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:01.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.