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Old 05-06-2013, 16:05   #226
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Re: MISSING 75īs.y. LADY DOMINA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Briansfriends View Post
I am writing on behalf of some friends of Brian Fritzner, a member of the Lady Domina crew. We are all obviously very concerned and have been checking this forum daily for positive news. None of us have much experience of cruising or sailing and we're logging in here desperate for information. we appreciate that due to lack of contact both prior to departure and since there are no definitive answers, but it would be really appreciated if someone with experience could fill in some of the blanks. any answers to the following, or indeed other questions that we should be asking, would be hugely appreciated.
1. is it possible that they might have decided to bypass the Azores and cross directly to Europe. if so, what would be a realistic timescale for that journey?
2. how likely is it that they wouldn't encounter/sight other vessels for this length of time at sea?
As I said, we are all very concerned and this forum is our only real source of information, even if that information is just speculative. Many of the posts on here give us hope but some ... not so much. any clarity that any of the experienced sailors on this forum might provide would be greatly appreciated.
many thanks
Craig

Hi Craig, look, bypass the Azores is posible, but with Lady domina very unlikely, without any way to get weather info in the way up there and with the poor condition of this particular vessel sounds crazy to me, is rough up there, and fuel and water call for a stop in Azores , with a sound and fast boat between 40 and 50 days depend of the destination, from Azores lets say HORTA to the Algarve south coast of portugal / spain is about 7 days , to north of Spain lets say La coruņa between 7 and 9 days, from la Coruņa to France , probably la rochelle or sables de Olone is 2 or 3 days , this if the cap planing to stop in the way , You can start to see trafic as long you close the shiping lanes , and close to AZORES ships start to appear in the horizon , in the north,, close to the north tip of Spain the shiping traffic is plenty.

I dont remember how many days this boat is overdue, turning back in the midle of the atlantic and go somewhere else without shout hey we are here!! sounds weird to me to, Puerto Rico, Bahamas, Bermuda, ?? or north of bermuda? planing a north route across to Norway? we dont know,
all i can say is, i be in this boat 5 years ago, the condition of gear and security stuff is just horrendous, rusty galvanized rigging , no main sail, no lifelines, a old comercial liferaft probably without inspections, etc...

Could be a problem here in the caribbean and the cap just run away and hide somewhere else , i really dont know sorry, i hope this boat show up soon and familys get a Happy relief .. really....
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Old 05-06-2013, 16:30   #227
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Re: MISSING 75īs.y. LADY DOMINA

Hi Craig,

I have crossed the Atlantic, the other way, twice, and also the Pacific and the Indian Oceans. I do many long passages alone and have to advise my family before I set out when my "overdue date" would be. i.e when they should begin to worry.
I use a formulea of route distance at 2 knots plus 2 days. If I get tinto trouble I should be able to get my butt home at 2 knots under a jury rig. But it will have taken me two days to sort myself out and make that jury rig.

Direct St Martin to Azores is 2237 NMs so at 2 knots is 47 day + 2 days = 49 days.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Briansfriends View Post
1. is it possible that they might have decided to bypass the Azores and cross directly to Europe. if so, what would be a realistic timescale for that journey?
St Martin to Gibralter (Great Circle Rout ie quickest way) is 3214 NMS at 2 knots = 67 days + 2 days = 69 days.

However, if you download this screenshot of the Atlanitc Pilot with the coourses superimposed you will see there is current going against them in much of the passage.
This means a floating boat may take some considerable time to make landfall anywhere. Without propper sails it can't go upwind. Without engine it can only go downwind, down current. I would be heading towards the USA unless already in the east heading atlantic drift.


Download from www.ourlifeatsea.com/temp/sxmtogib.jpg


Quote:
Originally Posted by Briansfriends View Post
2. how likely is it that they wouldn't encounter/sight other vessels for this length of time at sea?
When I last sailed the Atlantic, 2,800nms that really was about 3,300nms I saw maybe 5 ships in total. They would NOT have known I was there. Even if I had shot a flare at them the chances are they wouldnt see me.

The North Atlantic is quite busy... but 'busy' doesnt mean that you will see anything.

A few months ago a full size cargo ship was abandoned in a similar area (I thiink a little further north) when its tow broke on a run from New York(?) to Dominican Republic. The ship wasnt seen again for three or four months!

Unfortunately in your situation it is very difficult. If the boat is still afloat the people aboard should be fine. If not there is nothing you could really do about it anyway.
Horrible situation to be in.


All the best.


Mark
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Old 05-06-2013, 16:34   #228
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Re: MISSING 75īs.y. LADY DOMINA

The reason Tore quit posting on this thread is he got flamed and criticized.

It looks to me like everything the prior posters say is true. At the same time, until yesterday, no one even pinpointed the boat leaving. The fact is, no one KNOWS. Until we know, all anyone can do is speculate. This case has not been publicized. As a good a board as this is, not everyone subscribes to it, not everyone searches for the name Lady Domina.

Why is that important? Because we are searching for anyone who may have seen or had a conversation with the crew along the way. While no one has seen the yacht, I find it suspicious that includes before it entered heavy weather. Not a single person reports anything about this boat except that it left. This 75 foot yacht was out there for 14 days before the heavy weather, yet no one has seen it, no one heard a radio report.

We would like to pinpoint a last known position. We would like to pinpoint known problems on the boat. We would like to know about the crew, which as hpeer points will give us a better idea about whether an entire crew would not want to be found.

Sure, some yachts sail out of harbor and are never heard from again. Some yachts sail away and reappear long after people have given up hope and quit looking but should have been looking.

While time is against the Lady Domina, we are still in a time frame in which anything is possible. As sailors, we have the obligation to encourage the community to be vigilant and to give the families hope.

What I have written doesn't make me right. It is just a point of view.
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Old 05-06-2013, 16:53   #229
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pirate Re: MISSING 75īs.y. LADY DOMINA

Made my 1st W-E crossing in 2001... solo on a Bene 321... between St Martin and the Azores I saw one ship 2 days out.... 17 days out I was passed by a 40+ ft sailboat who sailed up close enough for a chat... 5 days later got passed by another large sailboat around 2am... chatted with the watchkeeper on the VHF... thing is... I got so wrapped up in the awesome marine life... Orca, 5 different types of whale from Pilots up... Dolphins, Birds of Paradise, Kittywakes, Turtles etc that when I was 100 miles SW of Flores I did not hang a right for the Islands despite being down to 60 litres of water and low on food... I had what can only be called 'Mottesier Fever'... I just kept going... there was to much beauty to stop...
The trip finally ended after a fashion when Falmouth loomed over the horizon at sunset around sunset on the 46th day..
Could 5 people fall under the same kind of spell this solo sailor did... I doubt it.. however... if the engine did fail and all they have is an old Genoa.. it would likely take 45+ days to reach the Azores... if the winds have been mainly N'ly its possible they may have changed course for Madiera for a better sail angle...
If they're in a raft its a bad place to be as they'll be in the inner circle of the Atlantic and will be unlikely to drift out into the shipping lanes... on the plus side boats have been heading the direct route for the last 4 weeks... one of our members has or is just about to head off from SMX... Stevensuf... if I remember his 'Tag' correctly... hopefully someone may report in over the next 3 weeks..

Main shipping lanes are in Green
Sailing routes are in Red
As you can see... the sailing route SMX-Horta is out of the 'Busy' routes for shipping
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Old 05-06-2013, 17:09   #230
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Re: MISSING 75īs.y. LADY DOMINA

neilpride, please contact me, immigrants2bfree@gmail.com
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Old 05-06-2013, 17:46   #231
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Re: MISSING 75īs.y. LADY DOMINA

We fix a Alternator problem and some electrical stuff in a big Jeaneau named FX with 3 spanish sailors onboard, the boat departure 9 days agoo, and we warn about the situation with Lady Domina, arriving in Horta in few days , the Skiper say is going to take a lookout in the trip as far is posible ...thats all i can do at the moment, warn boats sailing toward Azores...
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Old 05-06-2013, 18:18   #232
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Re: MISSING 75īs.y. LADY DOMINA

These guys:

www zewoceanu pl

crossed same waters, same time. Now they are onwards to France.

Drop them a line. Ask. They may ask other boats who crossed the area for any clues.

b.
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Old 05-06-2013, 20:31   #233
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It really isn't weird that you can't find people who saw them. It's a big empty ocean out there. I've only done three large offshore trips, but once out a ways we never saw anybody at all for many days. Sailing for 8 days from Victoria to San Francisco we saw zero ships or boats one offshore.

Did I mention the ocean is big?
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Old 06-06-2013, 01:44   #234
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Re: MISSING 75īs.y. LADY DOMINA

Hi all, wow! You guys have really responded! Thanks for all of the PM's, info and advice.

Here is what we would like for you to post on other cruising sites. Change it to make it fit your personality, but we are still seeking information from all potential witnesses. I would like to interview a family member from every family, friends and anyone else who may have had contact with the Lady Domina. We can pass that word through social media but we need your help. Some of you have expressed doubts about the potential for rescue and I think we all know this is a tough case. Yet, hope is our very best weapon at this point. If these sailors are out there then we need to have as much hope for them as possible. If they are not out there, then we have lost nothing.

Here is what I posted in another board...there are thousands of clubs, groups and circles. We need one person who can help us pinpoint a location beyond the weighing anchor. If that person is out there we can get there best by social media and publicity. Thanks for your help. Tim

Hi guys, My name is Tim Paynter. I am a writer, videographer and a few other things. I love to sail and hope to soon retire onto my own boat. Right now we are searching for two missing sailboats and would appreciate your reposting info. Not too likely you will encounter these in your area, but we as sailors travel, and when not in our boats we travel by net. As you cruise the net and see a site that might apply to these stories please repost. We suspect the sailors of one yacht are in a raft, the second is anyone's guess. The thing is, these stories have not made the English press even though a lot of English guys sail the area. Hence, we urgently ask your assistance in getting the details out. The yachts are the Grain de Soleil and the Lady Domina. Both were enroute to the Azores. The Grain de Soleil triggered its epirb, the Lady Domina disappeared. You will find more details at the following link:

Thanks, and great to be part of this group! Sailing Savoir Faire: Where Is sv lady Domina?
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Old 06-06-2013, 01:57   #235
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Re: MISSING 75īs.y. LADY DOMINA

Regarding immediate prior post, please include the following email: paynterlawoffice@gmail.com for replies. I didn't put it in the original post because all they had to do was hit reply. Please also reference this thread. Some people have asked so I want to be clear. I am doing this from the bottom of my heart and not as an attorney. I am not licensed in admiralty law, and it would be way out of my jurisdiction anyway. I have been at sea in horrible conditions with a disabled crew member. For 7 very long days I wished someone was doing this for me. I want to help gather the basic information, sifted for veracity, in one place, plus write the stories of the people who are living their dream.

Thank you again,

Tim

Current Thread:

Missing 75īs.y. Lady Domina

If you had any contact or know of someone who had contact, or have any information about the crew or condition of Lady Domina:

paynterlawoffice@gmail.com

Some details about the missing yachts:

Sailing Savoir Faire: Where Is sv lady Domina?
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Old 06-06-2013, 02:44   #236
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Re: MISSING 75īs.y. LADY DOMINA

Thanks la vida neuva, helpful.

In summary, your response seems to be that we need to publicise this as much as we can in the hope that we can initiate some extra vigilance from any vessels in the area. albeit that "the area" we're talking about is pretty huge. On that point, do you know if anyone has contacted amver to initiate a surpic alert?

from my point of view (and the other friends of Brian I've spoken to) I feel that I need to contact his family to involve them in this process and get their blessing for any further action, I will attempt this today.

as far as respecting sailors wishes to get lost at sea for a while, as some posters on here have suggested, I don't think that's helpful. I'm absolutely certain (and feel that I know Brian well enough) that any wish B might have to 'get lost at sea for a while' would be overwhelmingly outweighed by his concern for his family and friends, and in particular his young son.

Thanks for responding and i'll email you when I've made contact with B's family in Copenhagen.
regards
Craig
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Old 06-06-2013, 03:11   #237
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Re: MISSING 75īs.y. LADY DOMINA

Might want to mock up a chart showing the anticipated route and approx times of arrival - perhaps with a few alternate possible routes / destinations (by choice and from events)......my thinking is that a picture is easier for folks to understand (get their bearings?!). Could also do with a simple website, with hard facts (very few) marked separately from possibilities and unconfirmed info (nonetheless all included)......the story does get a tad confusing in a thread.

Hard as it is, really little that can do other than wait and see whether they turn up. or not. Nonetheless asking folks to keep an eye out in possible areas they could now be in (see above comments) is no bad thing as usual MO would not be to close in on other vessels just to say hi or on the off chance they needed assistance - the presumption being that unless signs of distress are seen that all is ok.........just don't pin any great hopes on that generating any results.

The Ocean is very big and yachts are very small and they can easily disappear without trace. Not often, but it can happen.
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Old 06-06-2013, 03:13   #238
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Re: MISSING 75īs.y. LADY DOMINA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Briansfriends View Post
Thanks for responding and i'll email you when I've made contact with B's family in Copenhagen.
regards
Craig
Craig,

I think publicizing in the cruising community is of limited use. If the family consider the boat overdue then they should contact their own government maritime search and rescue authority. They will put in motion a much more valid search using AMVER and similar resources.

The chance the boat has been seen at sea, and people logging it is extremely remote. And if seen a month ago, probably irrelevant. What is relevant now is a marine alert so all shipping can keep a lookout.

But really, in practicality, now its a matter of people on the boat making their own landfall, or attracting attention of a passing ship.
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Old 06-06-2013, 03:20   #239
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pirate Re: MISSING 75īs.y. LADY DOMINA

Well I've stuck it on my FB page... there's a few 'Brits' on there who may know someone doing a late crossing... and as I've said before one of the CF members has just started the crossing... hopefully someone will come back with something... sooner or later.

Edit; just found Stevensuf's post for crew... seems he's doing the SMX-Bermuda-Azores route... so that's not much good... Sorry
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Old 06-06-2013, 03:49   #240
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pirate Re: MISSING 75īs.y. LADY DOMINA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Briansfriends View Post
as far as respecting sailors wishes to get lost at sea for a while, as some posters on here have suggested, I don't think that's helpful. I'm absolutely certain (and feel that I know Brian well enough) that any wish B might have to 'get lost at sea for a while' would be overwhelmingly outweighed by his concern for his family and friends, and in particular his young son.
Craig
Craig... sorry to disagree... but right now anything that prompts a boat to check out another boat... or anything deemed unusual... they may spot on the horizon is helpful...
I also suggested they may have detoured E towards Madiera... the scope needs widening as anyone in a raft or drifting boat is going to be subject to wind and current.. this is not a motorway where you stay where you break down... directional control is zero...
Hell even someone heading for the Azores from Bermuda could come across them... if alerted to the situation...
As you'll see from the Pilot Chart I posted ones track is not as the crow flies... from SMX it goes NNE due to the influence of the Gulf Stream (W<<<<<< 20-30miles/day) to pass some 600 miles SE of Bermuda before achieving the almost E'ly course on to the Azores... anyone looking in the 'As the crow flies' zone is looking to far South & East....
The broader the area covered the better... the more eyes looking the better.
If you consider this a pointless post... my apologies.
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