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Old 11-01-2015, 12:27   #16
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Re: Miles over ground or over water?

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Originally Posted by homerobarros View Post
Hi everyone,
I need to prove to the insurance that I have enough experience to extend the areas allowed for navigation, so I am religiously recording all trips, but noticed that there is a significant discrepancy between the boat log that tracks over water, and the gps log of bad elf/navionics that record over ground.
What is the method mostly used?
Thank you for the clarification.
Cheers
BTW, your log book is all the legal evidence anyone would need.
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Old 11-01-2015, 12:30   #17
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Re: Miles over ground or over water?

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Originally Posted by meirriba View Post
not necessarily. It maybe result of a current, and it maybe result of a sailing in swell.

Anyway, for the original poster: only 'over ground'
over ground is for trips on the rhumb line, just to prove that is where you went. not distance you sailed.
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Old 11-01-2015, 18:03   #18
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Re: Miles over ground or over water?

Thank you everyone. Great responses and some food for thought. I will investigate if I can have the log of my B&G Zeus Touch record the log numbers over ground/ GPS instead of the paddle wheel.
Cheers
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Old 11-01-2015, 21:08   #19
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Re: Miles over ground or over water?

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Don't ask the insurance company and don't use statutory miles. Using nm based on over-ground is conventional and anything else may raise inferences about your experience. I went through the same thing. First they wanted my "resume", then they had some questions. In the end I got great nav limits, but with the requirement that I must be on board, unless slipped at a location the insurance company has approved, or unless a licensed captain and crew pre-approved by my insurer has command of my boat. (There are also some limits regarding named storms during hurricane season when south of about Ensenada.)
When i told the Insurance broker that I intend to sail down to Brazil, he almost died from laughing, since I would need years of proven records for the insurance to allow, and I would need to have an experienced crew or a prof. Captain on board...if I have to carry that bunch of strangers, then it will kill the dream.
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Old 12-01-2015, 07:56   #20
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Re: Miles over ground or over water?

For most certification purposes they aren't generally interested in distance so much as time or sea days. Generally defined as any day you leave port, return to port or spend the day at sea.
I'm guessing that's the information insurance would want. If you motor from your slip to pump out and back, that would generally be considered a day at sea.
I am by no means an expert on marine insurance though. My company didn't even give me a limit, they just told me to let them know where I'm going.

Sent from my SGH-I547C using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
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Old 12-01-2015, 08:04   #21
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Re: Miles over ground or over water?

My god, it is amaaaazing to me how many views there can be on a simple question.

Distance over ground, in nautical miles, is the only measurement which has real meaning for this purpose.

If you're counting distance thru the water, you could anchor in a 5-knot current stream for two days and count "240 nm thru the water".

Conversely, you could drift downstream in a 5-knot current for two days, covering 240 nm over ground, and count "zero miles thru the water".

Jeez....

Bill
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Old 12-01-2015, 08:46   #22
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Re: Miles over ground or over water?

If you have to have "X" number of miles or days piloting your boat to get insurance, what are you doing in the meantime, running without insurance?
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Old 12-01-2015, 09:01   #23
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Re: Miles over ground or over water?

The USCG does not take into account distance traveled when applying for a license.

As far as your insurance goes, distance over ground would be the honest answer. Distance through the water is relevant of course but it is not the standard by which legs of passages are measured
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Old 12-01-2015, 19:35   #24
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Re: Miles over ground or over water?

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Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
If you have to have "X" number of miles or days piloting your boat to get insurance, what are you doing in the meantime, running without insurance?
The Insurance allow me to go from Maine to key West, and then to Pensacola. Abroad only Bahamas...

Thank you very much everybody that took the time to enlighten me on this subject. really useful.
Cheers to you all
Homero
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Old 12-01-2015, 21:10   #25
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Re: Miles over ground or over water?

In this case the GPS nomenclature is a misnomer. It should be Distance Over the Surface (DOS) because that's what it is. The ground should always be several feet to several miles below you on a boat, and Speed Over the Ground should be Speed Over the Surface but I guess they thought that might be confused with the internationally recognized distress signal. It's the same in air navigation, doesn't matter if you are over mountains, deserts, or oceans, it's SOG.
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Old 12-01-2015, 21:46   #26
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Re: Miles over ground or over water?

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Simple and to the point.

But will they just take your word for it? If not, you don't have to log any miles just tell them what they want to hear.
They will take your word for it until you have a big claim. Then they will thoroughly investigate and if your representation is determined to be materially false or misleading, they will deny or your claim. Then you are SOL. (I have oversimplified by ignoring legal protections afforded insureds, but by and large my synopsis is accurate.)
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Old 12-01-2015, 21:49   #27
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Re: Miles over ground or over water?

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Originally Posted by homerobarros View Post
When i told the Insurance broker that I intend to sail down to Brazil, he almost died from laughing, since I would need years of proven records for the insurance to allow, and I would need to have an experienced crew or a prof. Captain on board...if I have to carry that bunch of strangers, then it will kill the dream.
"years" may be 24 months, which you should have before a trip like that anyway. Proven, I doubt since they will investigate in an effort to "disprove" if you file a claim.
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Old 12-01-2015, 21:53   #28
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Re: Miles over ground or over water?

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Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
If you have to have "X" number of miles or days piloting your boat to get insurance, what are you doing in the meantime, running without insurance?
Get a smaller boat and work your way up. They higher the agreed value and the broader the nav limits, the more conservative insurers are. Over the years, I have expanded my coverage and nav limits hugely, and a few steps along the way, I received heavy scrutiny.
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Old 12-01-2015, 22:10   #29
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Re: Miles over ground or over water?

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Originally Posted by MYTraveler View Post
Get a smaller boat and work your way up. They higher the agreed value and the broader the nav limits, the more conservative insurers are. Over the years, I have expanded my coverage and nav limits hugely, and a few steps along the way, I received heavy scrutiny.
But I just bought a brand new Beneteau Oceanis 38...
I started sailing in 1979, having raced mono hulls in Brazil, charted bare boat Catamarans in Greece, in France and in the Caribbean. Also had a diving school going to open waters to dive day and night for a couple of years, so I am not strange to the Ocean. I intend to sail as much as I can in the next year and half to then request an extended area.
Does anyone have a B&G Triton instrument, coupled with Zeus touch and know how to make the boat log record over ground and not water?
That will solve the problem.
Thank you again
Cheers
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Old 12-01-2015, 22:28   #30
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Re: Miles over ground or over water?

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But I just bought a brand new Beneteau Oceanis 38...
Well, if you got it insured, you are in good shape. With a little more experience, you should qualify for the next step up!
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