Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

[Giuseppe Carnev]

to RAM and the support of 2006 products

"This would also force me to buy a new chart recorder because my Raymarine e-120 now takes a different size chart so I cannot just change charts I also have to change out a perfectly good Chart recorder and the whole system as well- so its going to cost me about $10,000 + to get the update "

in 2006 the most common data card was CF (Compact Flash): it was the standard used by most digital cameras, printers, etc.
If I remember right, at that time the largest card you could buy had 256MB of memory.
As surely you have noted, CF has disappered from the market, first replaced by MMC, than SD of less than 2GB, then a modified SD that can go beyond 2GB, then MicroSD: we are talking 6 generations of technology.
A few months back we have been notified by all manufacturers that the 2GB cards have reached EOF (End Of Life) and cannot be bought any more.
In order to continue to support our older customers with plotters that cannot read more than 2GB we have bought a huge inventory of 2GB cards
So far the chip side.

On the data side as we, the boaters, demand ever more detail and ever more coverage, we have used the larger memory sizes to do what we (the boaters) asked: more data, equal or less price.

This means that we continue to stock chips that will work with your older machine, but the new charts have so much more detail and coverage that they will not fit in your old chip, which is likely to have less than a 20th of the smallest memory chip you can find today.
Bottom line is that you do not need to spend ten grand to change your plotter, but you do need to get a bigger chip if you want a new chart that is likely to contain 10 to 20 times more data.
The old wisdom says that you cannot have grapes on the vineyard, wine in the barrell and a drunken wife at the same time: if you want progress and innovation, you have to accept obsolecence.
Anyway if you are in the Med you can always trade-in your old chip for a discount; a similar service will be available in the US before the summer.
So your exposure is a fraction of what you feared, and if you have never updated your charts in 7 years, you've had a pretty lucky ride

[Giuseppe Carnev]

to COTEMAR
"That Navionics chart is in Meters,
The 2.7 meters = 8.8 feet "

In just about all displays that use Navionics charts you can select your depth units to be feet, fathoms or meters. So the depths are shown in the units that you select, or that were selected as default by the display manufacturer (untill you change them)

[ka4wja]

Giuseppe,
Thank you for contributing, but I'm still at a loss for information here...

Originally Posted by Giuseppe Carnev

Wow!
I did not expect to receive so much feedback in such a short time, so I will have to respond to one issue at a time.

I am a Navionics customer, and have 4 Platinum and 1 Gold chart chips (CF) for my Raymarine plotters....
And, as I posted I do NOT have any of the issues posted about here (NO pass/cut thru the gap between these islands, NO "recommended routes", NO magenta lines, etc.), on my 2006 Navionics Platinum Charts for SE US and Bahamas....

So, if you read over my post (#207, I think) you see that I'm wondering what/how things are different for those who seem to be using Navionics on their PC's and/or iPad's....
(Am I correct here in this assumption???? If I am not correct, someone please correct me!!!
Most of you are posting screen shots that are nothing like my 2006 Navionics Platinum Charts for the SE US and Bahamas....so, I'm left wondering....)


Giuseppe, could you please explain this????

Here is the main part of that post.....

3) I suspect that for many here, the most important part of this post is:
My Navionics Charts (Navionics Platinum, circa 2006) do NOT show ANY passage between Guana Cay and Fowl Cay at all!!!
There are rocks and shoals....
There is NO magenta line, NOR recommended track/route!!!!
(perhaps there are differences between the Navionics "chartography" when it was "configured for use" as PC navigation software and/or when it set up for a iPad/tablet "App"????)

a) On my Navionics Platinum chart (circa 2006), there are numerous rocks and underwater obstructions, prominently noted there on the chart, between Guana Cay and Fowl Cay....(3 to 4 shown across the eastern end of this "pass"/"cut", and 4 across the middle and western end)
But, just as important, there are shallow soundings (3' - 7') between these charted obstructions and throughout this area out a couple hundred yards....and shoals / 0' depths (that's zero feet depths) extending 50 - 75 yards out into this "cut" from the northern edge of Fowl Cay....
The entire gap between Guana Cay and Fowl Cay is only 250 yards wide, and NOWHERE on my Navionics Platinum Chart is there any semblance of a "pass" or "channel" between these two islands....
NONE at all!!!


b) My Navionics Platinum Charts (circa 2006) for SE US and Bahamas (running on my Raymarine E-120 and E-80 plotters), has NO magenta line (dashed or otherwise)!!!


c) There is NO line at all, leading to or passing thru this gap ("cut")between Guana Cay and Fowl Cay!


d) There is a solid black line, which is described correctly as a "bearing line", to/from the northern edge of Fowl Cay....heading NE'erly 1/2mi to 1 mi.....
This line, like other "bearing lines" on the charts, can be identified by placing the cursor on the line and pressing "OK", and a description and bearing details will show in a pop-up box on the screen of the plotter....
The description/details for this specific line show it as a bearing line, 240*M, distance 0.5nm....
(and this line, like other bearing/range lines on the chart, can be "turned off" / removed from the display by selecting "de-clutter", should these lines prove to be a nuisance to you....)

This bearing line, along with other bearing lines and "eyeball navigation", should allow you to navigate around the shoals/rocks/reefs and find your way into a "channel", such as Welk Cay Harbor / "alternative east entrance"....
But, again, there is NO such "cut" or "channel" between Guana Cay and Fowl Cay on my 2006 Navionics Charts ....
Not on my 2006 Navionics Platinum Charts...
Not on my "Yachtsman's Guide to the Bahamas" sketch chart...
Not on my Explorer's Charts, nor on my US NGA charts....

(although, from what some have posted here, it does appear that Navionics placed a "dashed line" thru the gap between Guana Cay and Fowl cay, on their "Navionics pc navigation software" and/or on their "Navionics iPad/Tablet App"......
Those that have posted this "dashed line" or "magenta line", please confirm that this IS where this you are getting/using Navionics Charts, as this is not the case on the 2006 Navionics Platinum Charts on my Raymarine plotters???)


e) I cannot show a "screen shot" since these charts are on my Raymarine plotter, but I think I'm giving a very detailed description (above) of this area, and now (below) of this solid black bearing line....

This solid black "bearing line" runs ENE'erly from the North edge of Fowl Cay ( GPS position 23* 29.825' N x 75* 42.345' W) to a position approx. 1/2 mile to the ENE (GPS position 23* 30.15' N x 75* 41.9' W), and is used as a "bearing line" (240*M and 0.5nm dist), along with another bearing line from the NE end of Man of War Cay, for your turn to the SSE for use of the Welk Cay Harbor Cut ("alternative east entrance to Elizabeth Harbor")...
These bearing lines allow you to come in from deep water, and turn into and pass thru the Welk Cay Cut (assuming you have visibility to take compass bearings), and keep you off the rocks/coral/shoals East of Fowl Cay and NW of Welk Cay....
While the surveyed lat/lon positions of the islands and associated shoals/rocks, etc. might never match their GPS positions (hence many complain "the charts are wrong"), unless the islands themselves are washed away these "bearings" (along with your "eyeball navigation", of course) are a possible way to navigate around suspect shoals and/or thru cuts....

On the Navionics Platinum Charts, this specific "bearing line" actually starts 1/2 mile further out (at GPS position 29* 30.402' N x 75* 41.554' W), about 1 mile ENE of the North end of Fowl Cay, in water depths of about 50' and is marked on the Navionics Platinum Chart as simply "waypoint".....with further Navionics Chart text along these bearing lines reading, "eastern channel" and "welk cay cut"....(and description/details brought up showing 240*M and 1.0nm dist)....
This should give you a reasonable point to sail to, and when approaching this point ("waypoint") use depth sounder and eyeball navigation.....and, especially if you have cloudy skies or are heading into the sun, use these bearing lines to navigate into Welk Cay Harbor Cut...

So, while I personally would NEVER recommend cruising the Bahamas without use of "eyeball navigation", nor without the "gold standard" of guides ("Yachtsman's Guide to the Bahamas") and up-to-date paper charts......as far as I can see the 2006 Navionics Platinum charts DO have the shoals between Guana Cay and Fowl Cay marked correctly, do NOT show a pass/cut where there isn't any, and DO show bearing lines to island end points and prominent land features, so you could use these charts, and the depths / bearing lines shown, to navigate into Welk Cay Cut.....
BUT....
But, I see others here posting "Navionics Charts" that showed magenta lines going up to the middle of the gap between Guana Cay and Fowl Cay, and some posting "Navionics Charts" showing this line running thru this gap, implying that it is a "cut" / "passage".....and some have mentioned that this is shown as a "recommended track" on these Navionics Charts.....
So, I'm assuming that there ARE vast differences between the chartography of various "Navionics Charts" and/or the software implemented for use on pc's and/or Ipad's/Tablets????

I do hope someone (Navionics???) could clarify this....Please!!!
Perhaps Giuseppe Carnevali would be so kind as to clarify these issues????


f) As I sit here and look over all of this, my mind is reeling with the thought that some "software guy" or "proof reader" saw a thin black line on the chart (the useful bearing line) and saw it leading from a waypoint to the end of an island (as a bearing line should), and thought that it should pass between the islands, and so he simply moved the line or re-drew the line!!!!

While this seems unconscionable (and outrageous) on the surface, and as such almost an impossibility, I'm left wondering if this is in fact simply what actually happened???

Using my newly gained knowledge from this thread, that it appears changes to "Navionics Charts" on-line (for PC navigation and/or iPad/Tablet Apps) can be made instantly (and frighteningly without ANY professional/certified survey!!!!), so the assumption that "someone" at Navionics simply "moved the line" or "re-drew the line" (and either changed its color, or the software automatically changed the line's color???), and hence at least implied that there was a "pass" / "cut" between Guana Cay and Fowl Cay, seems quite plausible to me....
And, is it possible that Navionics went even further, and denoted this "newly created" or "moved line" as a "recommended track" / "recommended route"???
In my opinion (using the information posted here in this thread, some of it directly from Navionics), it seems not only plausible, but quite likely!!!

And, further I REALLY do hope that Giuseppe Carnevali will clarify this for us all....
(Although this may be another reason for those of us "old timers" to still be proponents of paper charts.....that' a whole 'nother discussion!!!



4) Perhaps I should just sum-up my comments / queries....
a) Rolf, sorry to hear of your tragic experience!!
b) Bob Stewart, THANK YOU for taking the words out of my mouth!!
c) My 2006 Navionics Platinum Charts show this area correctly, with rocks/obstructions/shoals, and do NOT show any pass/cut, nor any "recommended track" between these two islands....
d) Would someone here (maybe Giuseppe Carnevali ???) confirm these issues/problems/errors are on the Navionics "pc navigation software charts" and/or "iPad/Tablet App charts", and/or "Navionics on-line charts"????
e) Is it possible / probable / likely that either a "software guy" / "proof reader", or the software app itself "moved"/"re-drew" an accurate "bearing line" changing it into a "recommended track" thru shoals and obstructions????



5) And, finally my 2 cents of Bahamian cruising advice/recommendations from my personal 45+ years of experience in the Bahamas....
a) use your eyeballs and depth sounder!!! (and binoculars / compass)!!
b) use the often poo-poo'ed "Yachtsman's Guide to the Bahamas"!!
c) use "official" gov't paper charts (US DMA / NGA) and "Explorers" paper charts...
d) do NOT rely on electronic charts, and/or iPad/tablet Apps.....nor any electronic products that have "not for navigation" warnings/disclaimers, etc...

Thank you very much...

John
s/v Annie Laurie

[Giuseppe Carnev]

Guys,

it is past midnight here and I need some sleep, so I will continue to provide answers in the next days, without eluding questions.

meanwhile let me reassure you that while there are more comfortable places to be than under the microscope, I am very grateful for all the entries that help improving our products and services.
each complaint triggers an investigation to understand the source of the error when there is one, resulting in two actions: immediate correction and publication of the updated chart, and removal of the cause so that the same error cannot happen again.
Meanwhile, for the safety and comfort of all of us, let me encourage again everybody to take advantage of the community edits: in a fraction of the time it takes to debate an issue on a blog, you can edit your chart and that of all your fellow boaters, and forever get credit for it. Your edit will be marked with a "+" sign in a green circle, to indicate that it is user-generated uncertified data (but still well worth considering!), and your name and time of entry will be associated to it. So no malware, because just like entries to this blog, anything wrong will be immediately spotted by somebody else and either corrected or reported as abuse.
Any objects with a "-" sign in a red dot are objects that a boater reports as not existing, or at least not in that specific position. For example if a rock is reported in one place, but a user says that it is 100 ft away, the old position is marked "-" in red, and the new is marked "+" in green. This way nothing gets removed from the database, and you can always check on everybody's else entries, and everybody knows that their entry will be checked...

[scimitar]

giuseppe
how you got this buoy in the middle of the gruz (dubrovnik) harbour,
i am born and bred in dubrovnik and literary i can jump from my bedroom in the sea and i can tell you that there NEVER was any buoy, i mean NEVER any buoy, any color or shape.if that buoy is there what you think how ferryboats from your italy would manouver or turn around.



also this two black buoys. that buoys yugoslav navy used and they are removed in 1995. there is one of my two boats now and other "locals"




i looked at "gold charts".......

5G524S2 KEFALLINIA - STON Patraiekos
Kolpos to Ston. Including Cephalonia, Ithaki,
Kerkira, Paxoi and Sipan Islands.

STON, why Ston. i do not know why you choose Ston for reference. that is tiny fishing village on the Peljesac peninsula, north of Dubrovnik. even in the Croatia 99% of the population probably does not know to show STON on the map.
for me would be more logically if you put it KEFALINIA-DUBROVNIK or KEFALINIA-KORCULA, but Ston. bit strange.

also, "Sipan Islands". there is no "sipan islands". there is only Sipan ISLAND, third island north of dubrovnik in the group of 5 (elaphite) islands

and also this.....

5G526S2 ZLARIN - GRADO Zlarin to Grado.
Including Pag, Cres, Krk and Rab Islands.

where and what is this "Grado". never heard of any GRADO in croatia.
there is Stari Grad on Hvar island bat this GRADO?????

[scimitar]

Originally Posted by Giuseppe Carnev

Guys,

So no malware, because just like entries to this blog, anything wrong will be immediately spotted by somebody else and either corrected or reported as abuse.
. For example if a rock is reported in one place, but a user says that it is 100 ft away, the old position is marked "-" in red, and the new is marked "+" in green. This way nothing gets removed from the database, and you can always check on everybody's else entries, and everybody knows that their entry will be checked...

are you serious. i do not know who is buying your charts but i will definitely steer clear from something that "bob and cony" can edit, and i am suppose to use it for navigation.

[ElGatoGordo]

Originally Posted by scimitar

are you serious. i do not know who is buying your charts but i will definitely steer clear from something that "bob and cony" can edit, and i am suppose to use it for navigation.

This is exactly what I was saying earlier. Active captain is great but I'm not using it to navigate!!! That's pretty much like saying everything on the Internet is true!

I wonder if we should start a new thread labeled Navionics explainS? Rolf's tragedy is being forgotten in the midst of this discussion.

[s/v Jedi]

Pink Floyd (Roger Waters, really): Mama, should we trust the government?

Who to trust? Your fellow sailor is probably more trustworthy than some government about a rock or reef being there or not. Anyway, when you see a mark from Bob & Conny that a reef is there, you either find another way or you investigate carefully, instead of running into it at flank speed.

I love the community effort but I have a hard time believing that after a year of using this one has to PAY for it? For access to community data?!

[minaret]

Does OCPN have a community data function?

[minaret]

Originally Posted by scimitar

are you serious. i do not know who is buying your charts but i will definitely steer clear from something that "bob and cony" can edit, and i am suppose to use it for navigation.

That's unnecessarily harsh. I'm sure they can mark a rock as well as the next guy.

[ElGatoGordo]

Originally Posted by minaret

Does OCPN have a community data function?

No. It uses charts that the user supplies, mostly NOAA charts.

I can't believe anyone will pay the price these e=charts bring, and then LIKE the idea that the only anwer the CEO can come up with to deal with the scads of mistakes is crowd sourcing.

I like Wikipedia too...but I wasn't allowed to use it as a source at my university...

I guess I'm saying I want a professional to do the cartography...individuals have anecdotal input, but they can't compare to a real survey.

Then again...I just don't trust ANY chart for depth!

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by scimitar

are you serious. i do not know who is buying your charts but i will definitely steer clear from something that "bob and cony" can edit, and i am suppose to use it for navigation.

Its just a layer you can turn off. You dont need to see it.


I think its a great idea. I run Navionics charts on Mavamatics on iPad and it doesnt have that feature. I would like it as I have enjoyed Active Captain on iPad and found the user notes on it excellent!

[minaret]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Its just a layer you can turn off. You dont need to see it.

+1 on this.

[ElGatoGordo]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Its just a layer you can turn off. You dont need to see it.

I did NOT understand this! Please ignore most of my comments Re. Crowd Sourcing.

However...I still want to know...is Navionics looking for better data or are they satisfied that thier "official data" is as good as it gets in charts?

[s/v Jedi]

I have said this before: I wouldn't mind if they remove every buoy, marker, range, sign, lightship, racon and what more they put in place. We have chart plotters with satnav, radar and AIS. Government can transmit some helpful virtual markers on the AIS where really needed and that's it. The physical stuff out there is all obsolete, all we need to do is learn how to navigate without all that... oh wait, here in the 3rd world we already do without all that!