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Old 18-02-2013, 10:41   #121
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

The logical way to enter Elizabeth Harbour is by the Conch cay cut at the North or the more tricky E entrance at Tree Fathom chanel , in the explorer chartbook at third edition dont say nothing about a pass between Guana Cay and Fowl Cay , is obscured by coral patchs , almost all the cuts and passes in Bahamas are VPR ......
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Old 18-02-2013, 10:44   #122
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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Originally Posted by roetter View Post
I am not saying I did everything right, but I am not an idiot either.
Funnily enough this thread has not degenerated into the usual internet kicking following events such as these - but I guess early days yet . Might be worth buying a hat .

As I previously said (in this thread) no experiance of either the Carribean or Navionics charts - but when I saw the first screen shot (a few pages back!) to my eye they simply seemed too light on detail (as do your pics) to give much comfort.

Having said that, I can see how having used them successfully for thousands of miles would lead you to trust them (more than me - who is unfamiliar).............but nonetheless I think that Navionics having that course marked as standard with "a Centreline of recommended route" (and not simply generated from own efforts) is bordering on the criminal - even if the package is also marked "not for navigation use". (am not a lawyer , but I think an argument that where a company knows that the only reason it's product is being bought is for the reason in a disclaimer! that they lose it's value / protection....I would favour a disclaimer saying "not for use as the sole Navigational Tool".

Certainly will be interesting to see if the insurers feel that Navionics are worth having a pop at......
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Old 18-02-2013, 11:06   #123
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
Heres an example where the Explorer charts are wrong.
The screen capture shows the route (of the boundary markers for the disbelievers) getting to Spannish Wells.
It clearly shows a route between Little Egg and Egg Island (marked "Mangrove")
Here's a copy from the Explorer Chart book, copyright 2001, for the same area as shown in Marks screen shot of his vector version of the Explorer charts.

I know that the passage between Egg and Little Egg was easy and open between 1997 and 2004. Someone there in the last few years will need to comment on the current condition. Obviously it would be interesting to know the date of the survey that Mark's digital charts were made from.

I believe the notation "Mangroves" is referring to Egg Island with its salt ponds.

Note that the magenta line on the paper chart jogs around the marked reef. Does anyone have new versions of the paper Explorer Charts that show a magenta line crossing the reef?

In this thread I'm seeing errors that are not present in the older paper versions or raster versions of the charts. Perhaps the conversion of data to digital format is not being properly proofed.

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Old 18-02-2013, 11:14   #124
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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Originally Posted by W32PAMELA View Post
Here's a copy from the Explorer Chart book, copyright 2001, for the same area as shown in Marks screen shot of his vector version of the Explorer charts.

I know that the passage between Egg and Little Egg was easy and open between 1997 and 2004. Someone there in the last few years will need to comment on the current condition. Obviously it would be interesting to know the date of the survey that Mark's digital charts were made from.

I believe the notation "Mangroves" is referring to Egg Island with its salt ponds.

Note that the magenta line on the paper chart jogs around the marked reef. Does anyone have new versions of the paper Explorer Charts that show a magenta line crossing the reef?

In this thread I'm seeing errors that are not present in the older paper versions or raster versions of the charts. Perhaps the conversion of data to digital format is not being properly proofed.

In April 2009 we passed between Littel Egg and Egg, without problems.
Attached is a picture of the same area, from the 4th Ed of "Far Bahamas" Explorer Chartbook. See the little red remarks "VPR area" = eyeball navigation.

Edit: In MarkJ's screenshot there are little round icons "i" for extra information, at the same places where the paper charts says "VPR". I am sure, when queried, this will give similar info.

Dirk
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Old 18-02-2013, 12:02   #125
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think MarkJ's screenshot is from a Garmin chart (or other company) that uses Explorer Chart information--not necessarily the same thing as the actual printed Explorer Charts. I am pretty sure that various electronic charts using Explorer Chart data are not identical to the originals.
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Old 18-02-2013, 12:36   #126
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Latest Explorer Chartbook, Garmin Bluechart, and Garmin again showing chart is copyright Lewis Offshore LTD. (Explorer)
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Old 18-02-2013, 13:05   #127
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Well, The attachment shows what the Waterways Guide 2012 Bahamas says...

(In fact the whole Spanish Wells thing was too much of a problem navigating so I dumped that idea! LOL)

Re query in the previous post re the "Mangroves" instead of the words "Egg Island" obviously as you zoom in more information can be / is shown.
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Old 18-02-2013, 13:13   #128
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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Well, The attachment shows what the Waterways Guide 2012 Bahamas says...

(In fact the whole Spanish Wells thing was too much of a problem navigating so I dumped that idea! LOL)
MarkJ,
We need you to go out there and check this for us.
Oh, and use the dingy first, because. #$%^ well you know.
Be sure to get back to us one this.

I am sitting in 2 feet of snow, so this snow shovel will not help with this
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Old 18-02-2013, 13:46   #129
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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MarkJ,
We need you to go out there and check this for us.
Oh, and use the dingy first, because. #$%^ well you know.
Be sure to get back to us one this.

I am sitting in 2 feet of snow, so this snow shovel will not help with this
LOL I'm in St Martin. And I'm not going back

its an ActiveCaptain.com job
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Old 18-02-2013, 13:52   #130
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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...
its an ActiveCaptain.com job
AC says:
Quote:
Passage between Great Egg and Little Egg is well charted and easily passable. It was reported that at mid tide the cut carried no less than 9 feet of water through the cut. This cut is easily passable.
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Old 18-02-2013, 15:50   #131
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I am always amazed at how quick many sailors are to adopt a line for a route or a bunch of waypoints from another cruiser...

You just don't do that, you plot your own route and your own waypoints.

I am amazed how eyeball navigation is explained as only needed when the sun is behind you, and that you can just go ahead when the sun is in front of you...

You just don't do that, you come in with the sun behind you or you don't come in unless guided by local experts or your own dinghy with depth sounder.

And we all see how these simple rules are ignored, leading to disaster. And we will all see this again, and again, and again.
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Old 18-02-2013, 16:09   #132
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

I certainly wouldn't take my boat blindly between Egg and Little Egg, but a bunch of blogs found with a quick Google search mention going through there as recently as December 2012. Might be worth checking with the Explorer Chart folks directly.
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Old 18-02-2013, 20:38   #133
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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I certainly wouldn't take my boat blindly between Egg and Little Egg, but a bunch of blogs found with a quick Google search mention going through there as recently as December 2012. Might be worth checking with the Explorer Chart folks directly.
Or just go 500 meters (yards) south and go through a known clear area?

Its only 500 meters!
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Old 18-02-2013, 21:07   #134
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Rolf,
I'm sorry for the loss of your boat. Hopefully insurance will come though quickly and completely for you. I can see clearly how you could be lead to this unfortunate accident.

If it isn't too much, can you tell us what happened to your boat after hitting the reef? Did the keels snap off? How about the rudders? How quickly did the boat flood and from where? What about the watertight bulkheads?

Once you hit the reef, to replay it, is there anything that could have been done to either save your boat or minimize the damage?
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Old 18-02-2013, 21:40   #135
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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Rolf,
I'm sorry for the loss of your boat. Hopefully insurance will come though quickly and completely for you. I can see clearly how you could be lead to this unfortunate accident.

If it isn't too much, can you tell us what happened to your boat after hitting the reef? Did the keels snap off? How about the rudders? How quickly did the boat flood and from where? What about the watertight bulkheads?

Once you hit the reef, to replay it, is there anything that could have been done to either save your boat or minimize the damage?

I would also express sincere condolences for the loss of Next Life.

All good questions Palarran which many of us would be interested to hear but I suspect a bit early whilst Rolf is dealing with his insurance issues and one could also imagine the likely comments by some of the posters here.
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