Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 18-02-2013, 05:08   #106
Senior Cruiser
 
Vasco's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Toronto
Boat: CS36Merlin, "La Belle Aurore" Ben393 "Breathless"
Posts: 7,138
Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

There are many errors with Navionics. In the Exumas errors exist from Ship Channel Cay in the north to Georgetown in the south. Many are obvious (taking you right over a cay) others not so obvious. Sometimes if anchored on the Bank it will show you anchored in the Sound. Most of the charts are accurate, that's the problem. It lulls you into a false sense of confidence. I was lucky, the first year I used it, Pigeon Cay (down near Rat Cay) was dead ahead and my plotter showed a nice wide channel. Did a quick 180 and have never trusted Navionics since.
__________________

__________________
Rick I
Toronto in summer, Bahamas in winter.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/beneteau393/
Vasco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-02-2013, 05:14   #107
Senior Cruiser
 
Vasco's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Toronto
Boat: CS36Merlin, "La Belle Aurore" Ben393 "Breathless"
Posts: 7,138
Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

One thing to remember is that are many cruisers in the Bahamas. If you are unsure of a cut or if a cut is new to you just go on the vhf and ask. I remember when Mark of Sea Life first came into GT he was on the vhf asking for info before entering. A smart move.
__________________

__________________
Rick I
Toronto in summer, Bahamas in winter.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/beneteau393/
Vasco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-02-2013, 05:26   #108
Registered User
 
neilpride's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: in the world
Boat: csy 44 tall rig.
Posts: 3,099
Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Quote:
Originally Posted by roetter View Post
Please only speak if you know what you are talking about. I know exactly what I am doing and know how to read charts. I was not the person you are talking about in your message. I have done almost 20,000 Nm cruising, including doing the inside passage to Alaska, Bay of Biscay, all of the Med, crossing the Atlantic and Pacific, cruising almost all islands of the Caribbean. It have done about 100 sailing races in difficult navigation areas with plenty of rocky islands and passes with currents flowing up to 10 knots. I wonder what you have to your credit to speak in such a way about me?

The Navionics charts clearly indicate that this is "Centreline of recommended route". See pictures,

We ran aground at a position that shows 9 feet of water. We draw 4 feet. We has checked the Navionics charts two days before against the full length inside of the reef of Mayaguana Cay Abrahams Town. We found every sandbar and coral head in place and all the deep spots too. We found an offset of about 60 feet to the GPS location a,thing easily corrected for by eyeball when near shore lines. We did this very carefully when the sun was high. We felt we can trust the charts in this situation. Two cays nearby that confirm your position is correct. We aim for the middle with a slight offset to starboard between the two cays.

Another couple we met in the morning had independently plotted the same course using the same material. They later said that they would have run aground had we not passed them. I tried to get the Explorer Charts in the USVI but could not find them in the chandlery.

We sailed into the sun. Not a good thing to do. There were no breaking waves at that time. There was no reason to go slow with that much water reported and dead on a recommeneds route.

I am not saying I did everything right, but I am not an idiot either.


With all the respect Sr, im really sorry for your boat, and i can say honestly that you are a BIG FOOL in terms of navigating a coral infested waters, having made the entrance to Elizabeth Harbour Exumas dozen of times and be sailing in Bahamas for almost 3 complete years from Great Inagua to Gun Cay include Jumentos and the keys close to Cuba , anyone relying in a Gizmo chartploter in this waters is dead meat , if you dont found the Explorer chart kits in USVI better dont try risky tricky entrances , this place is eyeball navigation + gps waypoints+ good reliable chart kit explorer + a big amount of caution= a safe anchorage...

Dont blame the sun , or the route sugested in the ploter, scary to know that others follow the same procedures.....
__________________
neilpride is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-02-2013, 05:28   #109
cruiser

Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 72
Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Quote:
Originally Posted by roetter View Post
Please only speak if you know what you are talking about. I know exactly what I am doing and know how to read charts. I was not the person you are talking about in your message. I have done almost 20,000 Nm cruising, including doing the inside passage to Alaska, Bay of Biscay, all of the Med, crossing the Atlantic and Pacific, cruising almost all islands of the Caribbean.

.
yes, and so what.. that is not exuse. no one in his sound mind will think, let alone try to take boat that size thru that pass.


and regarding "millage" and just for the record. i have marine colleege diploma unlimited (merchant navy-deck officer department). first assignment (chareleston, sc) as a third mate 1975. last assignment as a chieff officer 2003. (san pedro, LA).
even have master mariner unlimited certificate but never been as a master, (women did not wont to let me go to the sea anymore)

and enough miles to go to the mars and back

maybe this sound rude and offensive, but i do not feel any sorry at all what happened to you. because that is clear and plain stupidity nothing else. regardless wrong or right electronic charts. and now blame the sun.(you should wear those fancy Armani sun glasses)


i still remember words of my professor in the college. everyone is good officer/master until something happens
__________________
scimitar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-02-2013, 05:48   #110
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,580
Images: 240
Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

I see no need to use personally offensive and mean spirited language (& tone) to make the factual point that the captain/pilot was responsible for the grounding.
I belive that he, and everyone, knows that.
FWIW: I read roetter’s post(s) as an explanation, not an excuse.
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-02-2013, 05:53   #111
Registered User
 
Sand crab's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Gig Harbor, WA
Boat: 34' Crowther tri sold 16' Kayak now
Posts: 3,157
Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

So Navionics shows a dashed magenta line as a route and/or a boundary? Or is this a variation for the different PC, Ipad, Iphone, chartplotter programs?
__________________
We don't need no stinking badges.
Sand crab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-02-2013, 06:21   #112
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,949
Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Yikes! This gives me the creeps:

Quote:
This Rolf from Next Life. I stopped by the Navionics booth at the Miami boat show and made them aware of the problem. All they said was sorry and gave me a lesson on how to mark those reefs. He put int those obstructions as I was standing beside him.
So someone standing in a booth at the boat show gets a complaint from someone they've never met before and they just go ahead and mark up charts in such a way that it goes out to everyone who has Navionics? That is just a ridiculous way to update a chart, even if in this case, it might make some sense as an emergency measure. Isn't this a recipe for getting inaccurate data, and possibly malicious data?
__________________
Kettlewell Cruising
Kettlewell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-02-2013, 06:23   #113
Long Range Cruiser
 
MarkJ's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australian living on "Sea Life" currently in England.
Boat: Beneteau 393 "Sea Life"
Posts: 12,828
Images: 25
Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasco View Post
I remember when Mark of Sea Life first came into GT he was on the vhf asking for info before entering.
The other cheat I use is to watch other boats on the AIS and mark their track. In the Bahamas good ones to watch are the Tropical cargo ships. They know all the shortcuts... but generally they are pretty exact on the Magenta line.

Navonics was wrong in the Next Life Recommended Route... but that doesnt mean the Explorer Charts are wonderfully better either! They also have recommended routes that need to be carefully assessed.

With ECN so cheap, and plenty pirate stuff for free theres really a great opportunity to have a few sets of electronic charts to cross reference.

Google Earth is terrific too and shouldn't be relegated... OpenCpn has that great facility to track on cached Google Earth images so one can see the water at the same time as the chart. In this case the Google earth image clearly shows the breaking waves in that cut, and the clear water just to the SE in the proper cut.


Mark
__________________
Notes on a Circumnavigation.
OurLifeAtSea.com

Somalia Pirates and our Convoy
MarkJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-02-2013, 06:29   #114
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SW Florida
Boat: FP Belize, 43' - Dot Dun
Posts: 3,427
Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kettlewell View Post
Yikes! This gives me the creeps:



So someone standing in a booth at the boat show gets a complaint from someone they've never met before and they just go ahead and mark up charts in such a way that it goes out to everyone who has Navionics? That is just a ridiculous way to update a chart, even if in this case, it might make some sense as an emergency measure. Isn't this a recipe for getting inaccurate data, and possibly malicious data?
No more than using ActiveCaptain data. Although, with AC, it's very obvious the data is crowd sourced, on my (old) Navionics app, you have to query the data to see the source, plus I'm not sure if you 'delete' the data on the Navionics app, if that deletes it on everyone's device.
__________________
DotDun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-02-2013, 06:34   #115
Registered User
 
four winds's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Wandering the US Gulf Coast
Boat: 78 Pearson323 Four Winds
Posts: 2,138
Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

A couple of observations from a relatively new sailor, compared to many on the forum.

The characteristics of the dashed line match those of a boundary mark from the chart legend posted in this thread.

The screen shot of the chart indicates "not for navigation" in the lower right corner. I guess that is always written there. Does is make any sense at all that this label is there, and there is a recommended [navigation] route indicated anywhere? I would suggest recommended routes be the prevue of guide books, not charts.

Could it be the line in question was mistakenly labeled by Navonic's personnel?

Are there other examples of "recommended routes" in the area on Navonics charts?

The only place I've seen "centerline of" anything listed was the marking of a fairway, channel, or waterway such as the ICW. All these typically have coincident two way traffic. And the graphic also includes lines to indicate the outer edge as well.

----------------

I, too, don't see the need to be rude to the unfortunate Captain here. Read his post as explanation as well, not excuse. I've run aground twice in only three years experience. It's very humbling, though I got myself ungrounded in forty and five minutes respectively. Which helped heal my fragile male ego.

Rolf, I'm sorry for the loss of your very nice vessel. Hope your back on the water in the quickest timeframe possible.
__________________
Life begins at the waters edge.
four winds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-02-2013, 06:39   #116
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,949
Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Quote:
No more than using ActiveCaptain data. Although, with AC, it's very obvious the data is crowd sourced, on my (old) Navionics app, you have to query the data to see the source, plus I'm not sure if you 'delete' the data on the Navionics app, if that deletes it on everyone's device.
So, apparently I could just draw in my own "recommended route" right between two cays in the Bahamas, over coral heads and shallows, and it would show up on everyone's Navionics charts when they updated?
__________________
Kettlewell Cruising
Kettlewell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-02-2013, 06:46   #117
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SW Florida
Boat: FP Belize, 43' - Dot Dun
Posts: 3,427
Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kettlewell View Post
So, apparently I could just draw in my own "recommended route" right between two cays in the Bahamas, over coral heads and shallows, and it would show up on everyone's Navionics charts when they updated?
I don't know what all the capabilities of the "Community Layer" are, whether you can actually add a route. But you can obviously add hazards, rocks, fishing spots, etc.

I did find the global on/off switch for the "Community Layer" so you can turn all that off. You also have to register with Navionics in order to add stuff to the CL.
__________________
DotDun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-02-2013, 10:03   #118
Long Range Cruiser
 
MarkJ's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australian living on "Sea Life" currently in England.
Boat: Beneteau 393 "Sea Life"
Posts: 12,828
Images: 25
Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Heres an example where the Explorer charts are wrong.
The screen capture shows the route (of the boundary markers for the disbelievers) getting to Spannish Wells.
It clearly shows a route between Little Egg and Egg Island (marked "Mangrove")

Depth in meters.

But I understand its silted up and one cant get through and havent been able for years.
Maybe someone who knows can confirm/deny it.
And the other route straight over a lump of coral in the East of the chart.

Plus the route in between could be discussed too!

So the Bahamas need careful attention.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	eggisexp.JPG
Views:	217
Size:	84.9 KB
ID:	55104  
__________________
Notes on a Circumnavigation.
OurLifeAtSea.com

Somalia Pirates and our Convoy
MarkJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-02-2013, 10:34   #119
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Fethiye Turkey
Boat: Lagoon 440
Posts: 3,164
Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Essentially the charts are sold, and they are 'not fit for purpose'.

I have no knowledge of American law but i do know that in Australia it would contravene the 'Trade Practices Legislation'.

Any component you purchase has an end use, the end use in this case lead to disaster! Rabbit on as long as you like that he should have done this or whatever you like BUT the product appears to have failed its intended use and whatever way you paint it it's just not right.

In my country at least you cannot 'disclaim' your way out of litigation. Probably in the hands of the insurance companies lawyers hands, it may result in a bit more responsibility if that is indeed a documentated course over foul ground.

As i said previous my Navionics charts of the MED offer no such courses but i do note sometimes inaccuracies show me land-bound at times.

Trust electronics like a snake, be wary and be careful.....

Only my opinion and likely to be lambasted without oil!

Cheers.
__________________
"Political correctness is a creeping sickness that knows no boundaries"
Lagoon4us is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-02-2013, 10:40   #120
Registered User
 
Cotemar's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Boat: FP, Helia 44 Evo
Posts: 5,717
Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

MarkJ,

This is what my Garmin Bluecharts Mobile/Explorer charts is showing me for Little Egg and Egg Island cut by Spannish Wells .
I have not been there, so just showing you the data I see.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Little Egg_Island_Cut.jpg
Views:	211
Size:	236.1 KB
ID:	55108   Click image for larger version

Name:	Little Egg1.jpg
Views:	187
Size:	21.5 KB
ID:	55109  

Click image for larger version

Name:	egg_Island.jpg
Views:	208
Size:	100.1 KB
ID:	55110  
__________________

__________________
Cotemar is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
Bahamas, lagoon

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 15:42.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.