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Old 16-02-2013, 10:18   #76
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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Originally Posted by Lake-Effect View Post
That's sad. I'm just happy there was no injury or loss of life.

The question I have, is whether there are "official" government supplied charts available for that area, and whether such charts show the hazards.

We haven't sailed in that area yet, so we're trying to get a feel for what resources to trust.
It looks like the Navionics Charts are the only ones that steer you into the reef

The Garmin Charts look good, because they use the Explorer Charts.
The Explorer Charts are what everyone is recommending for the Bahamasí
The CM93_ed2_World_Charts_jan_2010 look good.

Maybe someone can post a RayMarine Charts or some of the others
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Old 16-02-2013, 10:56   #77
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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Originally Posted by Cotemar View Post
It looks like the Navionics Charts are the only ones that steer you into the reef

The Garmin Charts look good, because they use the Explorer Charts.
The Explorer Charts are what everyone is recommending for the Bahamasí
The CM93_ed2_World_Charts_jan_2010 look good.

Maybe someone can post a RayMarine Charts or some of the others
Wavey Line's charts are OK!
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Navioncs .... wouldn't touch those charts with a barge pole!

Am I surprised that some clown made a recommended route out of an area demarcation. No! Probably the same team that update Navionics from Google Earth and make Islands out of anchored yachts, or invented an Island near Redonda. Not to talk about the infamous Sandy Island west of New Caledonia. It's worth to remember that no official issuer of nautical charts, UK, AUS, NZ France or US had Sandy Island on their charts, while outfits like C-map, Navionics and Google( no hesitation to manipulate the real world) all had (have?).

Thomas
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Old 16-02-2013, 11:04   #78
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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We have Navionics Gold in our Raymarine E120 Plotter, the charts i have are for Med only.

There is no recommended routes on any charts, the only lines are pipelines, submarine cables and designated areas.
.
regarding Navionics & Croatia....


i looked at their "gold charts" and i am not going to by navionics charts any time soon. i will stick to euronav livecharts

5G524S2 KEFALLINIA - STON Patraiekos
Kolpos to Ston. Including Cephalonia, Ithaki,
Kerkira, Paxoi and Sipan Islands.

STON, why Ston. i do not know why they choose Ston for reference. that is tiny fishing village on the Peljesac peninsula, north of Dubrovnik. even in the Croatia 99% of the population probably does not know to show STON on the map.
for me would be more logically if they put it KEFALINIA-DUBROVNIK or KEFALINIA-KORCULA, but Ston. bit strange.

also, "Sipan Islands". there is no "sipan islands". there is only Sipan ISLAND, third island north of dubrovnik in the group of 5 (elaphite) islands

and also this.....

5G526S2 ZLARIN - GRADO Zlarin to Grado.
Including Pag, Cres, Krk and Rab Islands.

where and what is this "Grado". never heard of any GRADO in croatia.
there is Stari Grad on Hvar island bat this GRADO????? this
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Old 16-02-2013, 11:05   #79
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Wavey Line supplies Navionics with charts for the southeast Bahamas, but apparently not the Georgetown area. From their website:

Quote:
June 2010 – We sign an agreement with Navionics to reproduce our charts of the Southeast Bahamas (areas south of the Crooked Island Passage) and Turks & Caicos Islands.
Note: No WL charts or data are used in Navionics products for areas north of the Crooked Island Passage.
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Old 16-02-2013, 11:11   #80
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

The reality is that Navonics have stuffed up big time. However, the Bahamas are notorious for poor charting and anyone sailing towards there would know it. Its a bit like sailing in the Pacific, everyone knows that Tonga is poorly charted.
But these days going with just one form of chart is crazy when everyone one has access to cheap ECN charts, cracked (pirated) charts floating around the anchorages, and a myriad cruising guides.
Theres even ECN "Explorer" charts for OpenCpn... so its not difficult.

One other point thats noted in the Waterways Guide to the Bahamas is that the Bahamian Government has not marked either channel (north or south o Georgetown) at all, in any way, void of marks, null, zip, zero. (OK theres one mark on the northern cut. confusingly positioned)

That Government who rips $300 off every cruiser should get off their island time asses and get working!
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Old 16-02-2013, 11:29   #81
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

[QUOTE=MarkJ;1159965]The reality is that Navonics have stuffed up big time. However, the Bahamas are notorious for poor charting and anyone sailing towards there would know it. Its a bit like sailing in the Pacific, everyone knows that Tonga is poorly charted.
But these days going with just one form of chart is crazy when everyone one has access to cheap ECN charts, cracked (pirated) charts floating around the anchorages, and a myriad cruising guides.
Theres even ECN "Explorer" charts for OpenCpn... so its not difficult.

One other point thats noted in the Waterways Guide to the Bahamas is that the Bahamian Government has not marked either channel (north or south o Georgetown) at all, in any way, void of marks, null, zip, zero. (OK theres one mark on the northern cut. confusingly positioned)

That Government who rips $300 off every cruiser should get off their island time asses and get working![/QUOTE]
It's Island Time mon! Seriously, you know the Bahaman attitude... I wanted to buy a brass cabinet hook at the hardware store in Georgetown once. They had like 10 of them on a hook, all dusty and had obviously been there a while. They wanted about 3X what they were in Florida, so I said "You ought to lower that price down so you can sell some of those cabinet hooks". The answer? "NO, if we sell them we'll have to order more"!
Frankly though, I still dont get why someone tried to go through that pass.... as I said earlier, been through there by dingy many times and cant believe someone would attempt it. It's just plain bad judgement. Never saw anyone attempt it myself. Why be off the beaten path that much entering G-town for the first time?
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Old 16-02-2013, 12:20   #82
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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Frankly though, I still dont get why someone tried to go through that pass.... as I said earlier, been through there by dingy many times and cant believe someone would attempt it. It's just plain bad judgement. Never saw anyone attempt it myself. Why be off the beaten path that much entering G-town for the first time?
Through the Georgetown Harbour East Cut (North Channel Rocks Cut)? Becuase if you are comming from the Caribbian or Turks and Cacos it cuts 13nms off compared to Conch Cay (Georgetown West Entrance)

Or are you saying between Guana Cay and Fowl Cay? There is no pass,or cut there. There never has been as far as all the books/charts say.

The Georgetown Harbour East Cut, .8nm S of Fowl Cay is fine. Tricky, but fine.
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Old 16-02-2013, 14:11   #83
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

The post on Next Life's blog is quite telling:

Quote:
The problem was that we had travelled with the Navionics Chart Software happily and safely for months and for more than 10,000 Nautical Miles. We had also travelled to Alaska and back with the Navionics software without ever running into any problems. We trusted the software, not blindly, mind you, we would still have our guards up. But we trusted it enough to make our passage planning based on the information it provided. For the route we took, Navionics did not only show the depth of the cut as being sufficient, it even showed it as the recommended route to take.

At the same time, the angle of the sun was such that we could never have seen the reef before it was too late[emphasis added]. Local people who helped us said that there would have been no chance. And on top of that, the tide was such that the water didn't break in front of the reef, so there were no waves to indicate that reef either.

So the charts said it was okay to go and it looked like it was okay to go and that's when we ran aground.
Not being judgmental, because there but for the grace of God..., and having pulled similar bone-headed stunts myself and been more lucky, these are the lessons we need to learn. Many may know not to attempt a new cut/pass in coral areas with the sun at the wrong angle, but especially with modern navigation magic it is altogether too easy to forget our basic seamanship at the end of a passage and with a calm anchorage in our nose.

My sympathy to Rolf and Silke.
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Old 16-02-2013, 14:21   #84
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
The reality is that Navonics have stuffed up big time. However, the Bahamas are notorious for poor charting and anyone sailing towards there would know it. Its a bit like sailing in the Pacific, everyone knows that Tonga is poorly charted.
But these days going with just one form of chart is crazy when everyone one has access to cheap ECN charts, cracked (pirated) charts floating around the anchorages, and a myriad cruising guides.
Theres even ECN "Explorer" charts for OpenCpn... so its not difficult.

One other point thats noted in the Waterways Guide to the Bahamas is that the Bahamian Government has not marked either channel (north or south o Georgetown) at all, in any way, void of marks, null, zip, zero. (OK theres one mark on the northern cut. confusingly positioned)

That Government who rips $300 off every cruiser should get off their island time asses and get working!
To me $300 is a small price to pay to spend time in some of the most beautiful islands in the world. I also wonder if the $300 comes close to helping those Bahamians that used to make a living fishing and conching in the Bahamas
before the tourist raped their fishing grounds? But ya gotta love island time!
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Old 16-02-2013, 14:25   #85
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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Originally Posted by Dsanduril View Post
The post on Next Life's blog is quite telling:

Not being judgmental, because there but for the grace of God..., and having pulled similar bone-headed stunts myself and been more lucky, these are the lessons we need to learn. Many may know not to attempt a new cut/pass in coral areas with the sun at the wrong angle, but especially with modern navigation magic it is altogether too easy to forget our basic seamanship at the end of a passage and with a calm anchorage in our nose.

My sympathy to Rolf and Silke.
INDEED!
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Old 16-02-2013, 17:40   #86
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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Originally Posted by malbert73 View Post
Navionics on my ipad does have the magenta line labelled (when you click on it) as "centerline of a recommended route."
Hope their disclaimers are up to date
If that's the case then it looks as though Navionics are just using any line to indicate a "Recommended Route".......

Someone please send them copy's of....

NP5011 and How to Read a Nautical Chart

I am amazed they have now inserted the reef but are apparently still "recommending" you sail through there....makes no sense at all....
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Old 16-02-2013, 17:48   #87
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Or just download the free Chart 1 from the US or Canada.

http://www.charts.gc.ca/publications...rt1-carte1.pdf
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Old 16-02-2013, 18:01   #88
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

May be Navionics Charts should license the rest of the Bahamas from Wavey Line Charts so they have better charts.

Wavey Line Charts are the paper version of the Explorer electronic charts
Electronic Charts | Wavey Line Charts

This is why Wavey Line Charts / Explorer electronic charts are so good
Thanks to Bob Gascoine and Jane Minty
About Us | Wavey Line Charts
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Old 16-02-2013, 18:14   #89
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

here is another one......

http://www.mojaladja.com/upload/HowT...ticalChart.pdf

Navionics Charts

Navionics digital nautical charts are S-57 vector charts that are privately produced by Navionics SpA. Navionics provides a seamless cartographic database with global coverage; the largest privately owned database of its kind in the World.
Navionics charts are available in individual chart areas or full Zone coverage e.g. Full European Charts.


"Please note: Navionics digital charts are not updated or maintained in accordance with SOLAS requirements and must not be used as a replacement for up-to-date and authorized official nautical charts or ENCs. The master of a vessel is responsible at all times for using the correct information for the planning and conduct of their voyage".
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Old 16-02-2013, 18:24   #90
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Thumbs up Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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Originally Posted by DeepFrz View Post
Or just download the free Chart 1 from the US or Canada.

http://www.charts.gc.ca/publications/chart1-carte1/chart1-carte1.pdf
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I don't care if you buy or download them......just send them!
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