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Old 15-02-2013, 10:29   #46
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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DMA chart 26286 c 1995
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Explorer charts c 2000
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Yachtsman's Guide to the Bahamas. The way it was done pre-computer.

I'm old fashioned and prefer raster charts when going electronic. Looking at both the Navionics and Garmin vector renditions scares me. I'm not sure where the digital data came from for the vector charts on the used on the Navionics plotter or the Garmin but I doubt it was from a survey done onsite.

The Bahamas is one of those places that everyone should have a guide book for. Pavilidis' guides, the Yachtsmans Guide or the Explorer chart books will work well. Every pass commonly considered usable will be presented with a verbal description. The description should be read before attempting the pass for the first time. Anything not discussed should be considered unusable or if you are adventuress should be explored by dinghy first.

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This is the Explorer chart raster version of the Eastern entrance. While they show straight line between way points everything needs to be done visually between waypoints. There should be no following of magenta lines or waypoints in the Bahamas without a careful visual watch. The route that was clear last month may have a sunk Haitian boat, Mail boat or airplane on it this month.
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Old 15-02-2013, 16:10   #47
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Here's the same location using CM93_ed2_World_Charts_Jan_2010
That Red crossing looks bad on these charts also

Main channel in Green would have been better and much safer.
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Old 15-02-2013, 16:25   #48
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

I'm glad someone showed the Explorer Charts and the Yachtsman's Guide, because unless something has changed drastically the route shown in the OP is not one I would try in a big boat without extensive scouting and investigation in the dinghy. By the way, it is dangerous to follow any magenta line in the Bahamas without good visibility--eyeball navigation is the key, along with reading every available guide and falling back on the Explorer Charts when in doubt, but even then you need good visibility to confirm. One time I observed a whole string of boats following along in a line and heading right towards a reef. I called them on the VHF and someone answered that they were following the leader who knew where he was going. Not a good idea! Use your brain and eyeballs.
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Old 15-02-2013, 19:24   #49
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

instead of navionics if they "purchased" OpenCPN and those CM93 they would not go there definitely....



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Old 15-02-2013, 19:57   #50
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

that magenta "line", that is not ""recomended" route or any route. that is "area limit".
i wonder is this the same "captain" that some time ago was asking here on CF "what is meaning of the lower number next to chart depth units".






now he will have plenty of time to take some course how to read nautical charts and what is what on it.
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Old 15-02-2013, 20:01   #51
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Anyone open navionics today? All of a sudden there is a row of reefs/obstructions inserted on the chart in that passage, making it look unnavigable. Looks like realtime updates to the Navionics chart, as I am connected to internet.

I feel bad for navionics if they get too much bad press out of this. Generally it's a great product, but honestly I would not trust any chart plotter I haven't validated to thread me between 2 islands, at least not without someone on the bow with an overhead sun... From my sailing the the BVI, it's not hard to see reefs when the depth is <4-5 feet. The unmistakeable yellow/green hue to the water replaces the usual blue....
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Old 15-02-2013, 20:07   #52
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

In the old days prior to the Explorer charts, most of the available charts were based on old British soundings. Lat/Long could frequently be off by 1/4 mile or more compared to GPS data. We used to advise newbies to turn off their GPS when within sight of land, put on their polarized glasses and navigate by the land masses and using their compass and depth sounder. Boats have been lost trying to go through cuts in the Bahamas because the skipper was down below looking at his GPS rather than on deck looking at his surroundings.

Both Steve Pavlidis' guide and the Explorer charts show how to enter Elizabeth Harbor (Georgetown) by compass course, which is how it's been done safely for many years prior to the invention of GPS and chartplotters.

The cut between Fowl Cay and Whelk Cay is used mainly as an exit since the sun would be in the eyes of anyone trying to enter in the afternoon when most boats arrive. Exiting in the morning the sun is off to starboard and the wave conditions can frequently be more benign than the Eastern entrance MarkJ refers to. The Fowl Cay/Whelk Cay exit is discussed in Bruce VanSant's book, "The Gentleman's Guide To Passages South". The cut between Fowl Cay and Guana Cay is perhaps suitable for dinghys.

Entering the harbor is best accomplished by the traditional Western and Eastern entrances, depending on which direction you arrive from.

My 2 cents.
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Old 16-02-2013, 04:37   #53
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Just so sad to hear of anyone losing a boat. Fortunately all onboard are OK which is the most important thing. So sorry for Rolf.
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Old 16-02-2013, 04:59   #54
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Quote:
Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post
Do they usually "recomend" actual routes?
.

yes, they do recommend


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Old 16-02-2013, 06:26   #55
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Cheers for that .

"recommended" does seem a strong word though! The most I would ever do is "suggest" a route . But then again I would never set a course (track) for someone else to follow (if I was not on the boat myself).
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Old 16-02-2013, 06:26   #56
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Where is that electronic charts vs paper.." topic??
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Old 16-02-2013, 06:47   #57
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

The Explorer Charts folks have a good post up about this with some good screen shots of what their current chart looks like for the area. Hope it is OK to post this link. I think this is a very important topic.
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Old 16-02-2013, 06:54   #58
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Quote:
Originally Posted by malbert73 View Post
Anyone open navionics today? All of a sudden there is a row of reefs/obstructions inserted on the chart in that passage, making it look unnavigable. Looks like realtime updates to the Navionics chart, as I am connected to internet.

I feel bad for navionics if they get too much bad press out of this. Generally it's a great product, but honestly I would not trust any chart plotter I haven't validated to thread me between 2 islands, at least not without someone on the bow with an overhead sun... From my sailing the the BVI, it's not hard to see reefs when the depth is <4-5 feet. The unmistakeable yellow/green hue to the water replaces the usual blue....
OH MY GOD. Your right. Navionics just updated there chart to show the reef. This has only been a few days since we were talking about this.

I wonder if they had seen all the chatter and fixed it ????

Wow I am impressed
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Old 16-02-2013, 07:04   #59
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

I have always thought that the disclaimers that chart plotters use :Not to be used for navigation", or some variant of this, was always a joke. In the US at least, you can not disclaim liability away, if it can be proven that there was negligence. I remember the example from my college business law book. It used a boat rental business. The disclaimer that everyone that rented was required to sign held the rental company harmless for any and all errors, damages, life, limb, etc.

However, in the example, the boat was not maintained, and some sort of accident occurred because of this. And in the end, the rental company was help liable, despite their disclaimer.

I wonder how this might apply to a chartplotter company, or supplier of electronic charts? It seems that their data was in error. I would love to see a case that tests the disclaimer.

Could somebody with Navionics charts share what the disclaimer they use is?

Chris
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Old 16-02-2013, 07:14   #60
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Another report of the catamaran wrecked entering Elizabeth Harbour
Published February 15, 2013 | By monty
Fellow Boaters:
Pass the word. Navionics Electronic Charts have sunk another boat. A Lagoon 450 less than 9 months old got wrecked and sunk to the cabin roof trying to go between Guana and Fowl Cay to enter Elizabeth Harbour in the Exumas! Navionics shows the preferred route from the South thru that passage which has 2-4′ low tide controlling depths among shallower coral heads. The couple on board were helped by my local cruisers and were not injured. Both hulls ended up damaged. David Mitchell, a local salvager, got it off the reef and into the Marina at Masters Harbour. The people flew back home to the Canada. Navionics are notorious for being wrong in several areas of the Bahamas. Please pass this on and maybe we can save others from losing their boats and dreams.
Skip & Cherylle
SV Eleanor M
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