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Old 14-02-2013, 12:58   #31
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

I just checked my Navionics on the iPad and zoomed in it shows only 1.6m depth so magenta line or not, its shallow on the charts.

Its weird to go in that way instead of the route .8nm further south.

CM93 charts have no magenta line.

Garmin charts have the magenta line through the Middle Rocks passage as most use.

I do remember being very careful on that entry.
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Old 14-02-2013, 13:55   #32
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagoon4us View Post
Well done with the explanation Cotemar, it's not for us to say we would have done different, maybe we would and maybe we wouldn't, but we must learn from a devastating situation like this one.

We all setup for redundancy in our boats usually having an essential back-up. This can be said to be good reason for paper charts but also if you spend the money on a smaller Plotter go for different cartography at the same time.

Cheers Frank
Not unlike why a couple of American Yachts have been wrecked on Coral sea reefs coming into Australia using electronic charts.

Whole coral sea reefs do not show up at some zoom ranges on vector electronic charts. Agree different cartography is a good idea as well as paper in some areas.

Very unfortunate. Surprising how one can relate to a person following their involvment in a thread.
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Old 15-02-2013, 03:52   #33
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Can someone please point out where on the Navionics or Garmin chart the recommended route/track is marked, or the route followed by the unfortunate vessel.....i can't see either...



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Old 15-02-2013, 04:28   #34
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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Originally Posted by IslandHopper View Post
Can someone please point out where on the Navionics or Garmin chart the recommended route/track is marked, or the route followed by the unfortunate vessel.....i can't see either...


Do they usually "recomend" actual routes? Or simply show possible routes - which may or may not be advisable (or only possible on the chart?!).

Although I have used them, I am not so experianced with Chartplotters as many others here (and that not said in a negative way towards others!)......just kinda curious as to what is the norm (no doubt a nice shiney all singing and dancing Chartplotter will be on my wishlist at some point ).
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Old 15-02-2013, 05:57   #35
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post
Do they usually "recomend" actual routes? Or simply show possible routes - which may or may not be advisable (or only possible on the chart?!).
Yes, but they are usually there for larger, deeper draft vessels.....See " Symbols and Abbreviations" section M Tracks, Routes http://www.mpa.gov.sg/sites/pdf/chart1_jul11.pdf

My point is in the article Wrecked Catarmaran being Salvaged | Bahamas Chatter
Quote:
The boat had been reported to have been attempting to enter Elizabeth Harbour along a route shown on Navionics electronic charts.
.....and in posts 1 and 21....
Quote:
You can clearly see how this can happen
View the Satellite Image of the path through Fowl Cay and Guana Cay, Exuma, Bahamas
Now view what the Captain was viewing on the Navionics Charts
Now view what was really there on the Garmin Explorer Charts
......which to me implies the vessel was following the pecked magenta line shown on the Navionics chart, if this was the case then any vessel following the pecked line will eventually wind up on the bricks somewhere as this line is an "Area" or "Limit Line", not a route/track.....section N pages 36 to 38 http://www.mpa.gov.sg/sites/pdf/chart1_jul11.pdf

I am in no way suggesting this is what happened, only that the linked article and screen shots (who's screen shots are they ?) are somewhat misleading....

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Old 15-02-2013, 06:24   #36
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

I feel the pain these folks and im so sorry this happened, this could have happened to any of us , that said
Anyone who has spent any real time in the Bahamas knows not every coral head and reef is on every/any chart, be it electronic or paper and what is really important and needed in these waters is knowing how to read the color of the water and a pair of Polaroid sunglasses. Without experience doing this itís easy to run aground, you learn to travel in areas that are shallow when the sun is overhead- keeping a sharp look out, I would not dream of sailing in places like this without eyeball navigation and giving 100% of my attention to whatís in front of me. I leaned this early on as a youngster, and later as a Dive boat Captain of 10 years in the Bahamas, where we would weave in and out of coral heads the size of a table top or house, coming off a flat sand bottom in 10- 100 ft of water-none showing on the paper charts! I did not have a chart plotter then, they did not exist, But I have one today and Iím in LOVE with it. But I donít rely on it completely, itís only a tool in the tool box along with many other tools to get me and the crew safely back home
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Old 15-02-2013, 06:53   #37
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Looking at a paper chart, and comparing that to my Garmin G2 vision zoomed in and then compared to my Navionics HD zoomed in, only my Navionics HD on my tablet shows it as Not passable in anything with more than a 12" draft.
Kind of scarey all 3 are different and the "less likely" shows the best detail.
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Old 15-02-2013, 06:56   #38
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Cruising in the Bahamas made me extremely nervous as I am used to deeper water up here in the north country. Normally when the depth gets above 30 feet I am paying attention.

In the Bahamas we were looking at 6 feet versus 6.5 feet for miles. That scared the sh_t out of me. Needless to say we stayed only on the verified well trod paths in and out of the harbors and around the islands. I can't imagine plotting a course through that channel unless two or more guide confirmed the feasibility.

Of course all this is said with heightened sense of apprehension I had while sailing without local knowledge in shallow waters.

I can't imagine the range of emotions that the skipper must be going through having lost his beautiful boat. I wish him the best.
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Old 15-02-2013, 07:00   #39
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Navigating with the electronic charts like Navionics is like shopping at West Marine. When shopping at West Marine some of the products are priced well and are a good deal. However, some items are priced super high. If one makes the assumption that all the prices are really good then you can end up paying lots of money for that assumption.

99% of data on a Navionics chart are really spot on. That makes it easy to make the assumption that 100% is spot on and you can end up paying lots of money for that assumption.
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Old 15-02-2013, 07:28   #40
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Quote:
Originally Posted by IslandHopper View Post
My point is in the article Wrecked Catarmaran being Salvaged | Bahamas Chatter

.....and in posts 1 and 21....
......which to me implies the vessel was following the pecked magenta line shown on the Navionics chart, if this was the case then any vessel following the pecked line will eventually wind up on the bricks somewhere as this line is an "Area" or "Limit Line", not a route/track.....section N pages 36 to 38 http://www.mpa.gov.sg/sites/pdf/chart1_jul11.pdf

I am in no way suggesting this is what happened, only that the linked article and screen shots (who's screen shots are they ?) are somewhat misleading....

What is misleading about a Navionics chart showing you a pecked magenta line through a shallow reef ?

The captain went that way to follow the pecked magenta line which normally would be a good route.

In reality the good route is to the east of Fowl Cay
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Old 15-02-2013, 07:28   #41
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Re: Damaged 2012 Lagoon 450, Only $150K

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
...................

Hopefully this ends the debate about "electronic charts vs paper.." :>)

I don't think inaccuracies or a lack of detail is unique to electronic charts. I recall approaching Royal Isle west of Spanish Wells with a MapTech paper chart showing deep water in both sides of a center rock, while the Explorer paper charts showed some risks on the starboard of the rock. I was glad to have been influenced by the choice of a vessel in front of me and only later I learned that I could have struck some rock with the other choice. Paper and electronic charts can vary in accuarcy in different areas. I like the Explorer Charts for the Bahamas, but as others said above, it's a good plan to pass over shallows with good light and someone forward to "read" the water.
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Old 15-02-2013, 08:09   #42
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

To me this just outlines the absolute need to use the Explorer charts in the Bahamas. I would not think of using anything else. If I had a Garmin chartplotter, I still would check it against the paper Explorer charts.
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Old 15-02-2013, 08:25   #43
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

I'm confused. In the file attached by Island Hopper,
http://www.mpa.gov.sg/sites/pdf/chart1_jul11.pdf
it shows tracks and routes as a black dashed line on page 3. Also on page 33 it shows both black and magenta as routes and limits respectively. So isn't IH correct? Aren't the dashed magenta lines some sort of limit or boundary?
They are used in a variety of descriptions (pages 24, 33, 36, 37, 38 etc).
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Old 15-02-2013, 09:28   #44
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cotemar View Post
What is misleading about a Navionics chart showing you a pecked magenta line through a shallow reef ?

The captain went that way to follow the pecked magenta line which normally would be a good route.

In reality the good route is to the east of Fowl Cay
Because a pecked magenta line in itself is NOT a track as far as recognised chart symbols go, it's a limit line of some sort....in the Navionics program does it say this is a recomended track ? does it give any bearings for wheel over points ? where is the info on courses to steer ?

Or is it just blindly follow the electronic line and have a little faith.....

My comments are not aimed at the unfortunate vessel or her occupants, but at knowing how to read a chart and understanding the symbols used.....
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Old 15-02-2013, 10:01   #45
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

I thought I might just review the advice in the Waterways Guide Bahamas 2012 page 342

They make an interesting comment which when read by itself doesnt help when the Magenta line is worng!

Their waypoint description is correct as I did it and am still alfoat. Thats the route thats .8nm south east of Fowl cay route.
But I note Waterways guide doesnt have a close up chart or a photo of this cut. Maybe they could in another edition as Georgetown is very popular and theres only two cuts, one well noth and one south of Georgetown.

Certaintly Navonics needs to update their charts poste haste. At least with ECN those updates can get to most customers quickly.
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