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Old 26-04-2013, 14:13   #316
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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Originally Posted by dougdaniel View Post
To whom it may concern,

As an instrument flight instructor, let me assure you that no one lands an airplane only with a GPS. We can get very close to the ground in very poor visibility before we are required to see the 'airport environment' and to land visually. I think that Mr. Carny makes a very valid point, one that is clearly correct, that a map, a compass, a depth sounder, a radar set, etc. are all aids to navigation, just tools in the skipper's tool box.

I am certain that if Rolf knew then what he knows now, he would have done things differently.

I am certain that if I had had Rolf's experiences entering that passage, I would have made exactly the same decision he did and lost my boat, too.

In my humble opinion, trying to find a villain is counterproductive. Bashing Mr. Carny because he facilitates sharing user input and clearly marks it as user input is counterproductive. Ridiculing skippers who choose to follow skippers with local knowledge through a dangerous passage is certainly hard for me to understand.

I think we owe a big thanks to Rolf for sharing his painful, embarrassing, and costly experience with us. Clearly his motive was to help us avoid the same tragedy, not to make excuses or to find someone to blame. I also think we owe Mr. Carney both thanks and civil treatment for so clearly stating his position.
Well said.

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Old 27-04-2013, 06:04   #317
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

It does fit in with the new, "Nobody is really responsible for anything they do" mentality that we bombard people with from birth these days.
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Old 28-04-2013, 21:56   #318
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Thanks for that Ram. I already refuse to buy Raymarine because they don't support their systems, three years after my last chart plotter purchase came out you couldn't get parts or service for it, have to buy a new one. UL listed electronics are legally supposed to be supported for ten years. Never again. Add Navionics to that list. I hate greedy companies like that. Won't use a company that treats their clientele like that, even if their product is the best on the market, and in this case it's not.
Yip ... with you guys on this Raymarine thing! We just paid over $2000 in charts for our E120 and purchased these about a month and a bit ago. In between our E120 upstairs decided to fail and we cannot see the display.

I was told there are no spares for E120 plotters and cannot get any new ones so must upgrade ...

Huh ... purchase the boat new 3 yrs ago ...

So ... lets upgrade!

Asked if they would take back the old charts for new style charts ... mine are still sealed in boxes. They said 'NO!'

Asked if they would trade old charts not used for new style ... a % of new ?

They said ... 'NO!'

Well ... I am a cruiser ... I am not sailing to feel 'uptight' and won't get myself frustrated over Raymarine!

Raymarine ... I thankfully found one on eBay which replaces this one ...

I have lost all faith in your integrity as a company and will be sure not to have a Raymarine on the next boat we purchase new in 2015.
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Old 28-04-2013, 22:05   #319
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Thanks Impi.

I had pretty well ruled out Raymarine and your experience settles it.

My mate with a 440 in Med says service for Ray is good over there.

Good to follow your travels and note great experience you had in Cuba.

Cheers
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Old 28-04-2013, 22:26   #320
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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Originally Posted by downunder View Post
Thanks Impi.

I had pretty well ruled out Raymarine and your experience settles it.

My mate with a 440 in Med says service for Ray is good over there.

Good to follow your travels and note great experience you had in Cuba.

Cheers
Nice comments ... thanks so much! Yeah ... my mate in SA who also did all our electrical work is a Raymarine Agent and a really super guy! I have huge respect for Robert.

He does his best for me and really tried to assist, but I'm afraid the agents can only do so much ... no blame on them!

I have tried, in the past to sort out an issue directly with Raymarine after my mate just could not. They skirted every which way around the problem and I was not experienced enough to deal with it. I have lived with the issue which shows the wrong wind angle on only one tack and had several agents attempt to remedy it. My feeling was to ignore it and 'just look up to the top of the mast' ... no big deal. However, I feel Raymarine showed their true colours on our latest issue ... and how does that old saying go ... 'shame on you if I get caught by you first time and shame on me if I get caught by you the second time!'

Raymarine will not catch me next time ... simply cos I won't have their product onboard!

As for Cuba ... man ... terrific sailing there ... would love to go back some time but getting ready to move through Panama into the Pacific.

I feel so sad about Roeter loosing his boat to the reef near George Town ... it could happen to any of us at any time. The odd nasty comment leaves me stone cold ... things usually happen to sailors who sail ... active sailors moving from one territory to the next ... and sad to have poor comments from sailors who probably never move in the first place.

AND hey ... we start heading toward your territory soon ... hope to meet up ... a pretty small world ... only tonight discovered Jedi is docked meters from us ...
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Old 28-04-2013, 22:40   #321
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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Originally Posted by impi View Post
Nice comments ... thanks so much! Yeah ... my mate in SA who also did all our electrical work is a Raymarine Agent and a really super guy! I have huge respect for Robert.

He does his best for me and really tried to assist, but I'm afraid the agents can only do so much ... no blame on them!

I have tried, in the past to sort out an issue directly with Raymarine after my mate just could not. They skirted every which way around the problem and I was not experienced enough to deal with it. I have lived with the issue which shows the wrong wind angle on only one tack and had several agents attempt to remedy it. My feeling was to ignore it and 'just look up to the top of the mast' ... no big deal. However, I feel Raymarine showed their true colours on our latest issue ... and how does that old saying go ... 'shame on you if I get caught by you first time and shame on me if I get caught by you the second time!'

Raymarine will not catch me next time ... simply cos I won't have their product onboard!

As for Cuba ... man ... terrific sailing there ... would love to go back some time but getting ready to move through Panama into the Pacific.

I feel so sad about Roeter loosing his boat to the reef near George Town ... it could happen to any of us at any time. The odd nasty comment leaves me stone cold ... things usually happen to sailors who sail ... active sailors moving from one territory to the next ... and sad to have poor comments from sailors who probably never move in the first place.

AND hey ... we start heading toward your territory soon ... hope to meet up ... a pretty small world ... only tonight discovered Jedi is docked meters from us ...
Impi all the best coming across the Pacific.

When I do it I am planning to try to dive with the hammerheads at Cocos. We don't get them schooling on GBR though they are not uncommon.

Hope you catch up with Jedi. He strikes me as one of the most knowledegable posters here.

I am based in Mackay one of the entrance ports. Can organise a vehicle for you if you make it into Mackay. Would look foward to catching up with you.

Cheers
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Old 29-04-2013, 05:50   #322
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

agreed on Raymarine crappy service. I bought a new yacht in 2012 and found the installed charts were 2010 vintage. I asked them to upgrade to current chats and they refused. How bad is that for service. Then we had a problem with our plotter and they refuse to service it on site so it cost 200 euro to have it removed and sent to Raymarine to be repaired and then they dont tell you what the problem was.
Also there is a bug in the software that wont allow it to keep accurate Log data, so it says we have sailed 20,000 miles when we have sailed 1,000. When I asked
them they said yes its a ug and we have no intention of fixing it!
Really poor service, customer support and product backup from Raymarine.
I heard Lagoon will not be using them in the future for these reasons and switching to B&G or similar...
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Old 29-04-2013, 06:24   #323
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Interesting comments about Raymarine. I have purchased Furuno equipment starting in 1984. This included a Loran, two small radars, a small GPS, and a full up Navnet system (radar, one large display, one small display, depth sounder, and GPS) over the years. Every piece of equipment functioned flawlessly out of the box and still functions today.

The Navnet software had been upgraded a couple versions so they sent us an upgrade disk and directions on installing the upgrade...worked flawlessly.

Our Mason 44 came with Raymarine 1999 vintage electronics. Only the radar was still working. The data channel between the chartplotter and radar was out and the chart plotter did not work. The user interface was terrible and the push buttons could tilt and get stuck on the case. The connectors were also poor. IMO, it exhibited many signs of very poor engineering.

My guess is that the Furuno equipment was designed and engineered on a much larger budget.
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Old 04-04-2014, 09:22   #324
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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Originally Posted by Dulcesuenos View Post
Looking at a paper chart, and comparing that to my Garmin G2 vision zoomed in and then compared to my Navionics HD zoomed in, only my Navionics HD on my tablet shows it as Not passable in anything with more than a 12" draft.
Kind of scarey all 3 are different and the "less likely" shows the best detail.
For those considering using iSailor, on my iPad also shows that "pass" as impassible.

Jack
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Old 12-04-2014, 20:02   #325
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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Originally Posted by FSMike View Post
In the old days prior to the Explorer charts, most of the available charts were based on old British soundings. Lat/Long could frequently be off by 1/4 mile or more compared to GPS data. We used to advise newbies to turn off their GPS when within sight of land, put on their polarized glasses and navigate by the land masses and using their compass and depth sounder. Boats have been lost trying to go through cuts in the Bahamas because the skipper was down below looking at his GPS rather than on deck looking at his surroundings.

Both Steve Pavlidis' guide and the Explorer charts show how to enter Elizabeth Harbor (Georgetown) by compass course, which is how it's been done safely for many years prior to the invention of GPS and chartplotters.

The cut between Fowl Cay and Whelk Cay is used mainly as an exit since the sun would be in the eyes of anyone trying to enter in the afternoon when most boats arrive. Exiting in the morning the sun is off to starboard and the wave conditions can frequently be more benign than the Eastern entrance MarkJ refers to. The Fowl Cay/Whelk Cay exit is discussed in Bruce VanSant's book, "The Gentleman's Guide To Passages South". The cut between Fowl Cay and Guana Cay is perhaps suitable for dinghys.

Entering the harbor is best accomplished by the traditional Western and Eastern entrances, depending on which direction you arrive from.

My 2 cents.
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Originally Posted by impi View Post
Yip ... with you guys on this Raymarine thing! We just paid over $2000 in charts for our E120 and purchased these about a month and a bit ago. In between our E120 upstairs decided to fail and we cannot see the display.

I was told there are no spares for E120 plotters and cannot get any new ones so must upgrade ...

Huh ... purchase the boat new 3 yrs ago ...

So ... lets upgrade!

Asked if they would take back the old charts for new style charts ... mine are still sealed in boxes. They said 'NO!'

Asked if they would trade old charts not used for new style ... a % of new ?

They said ... 'NO!'

Well ... I am a cruiser ... I am not sailing to feel 'uptight' and won't get myself frustrated over Raymarine!

Raymarine ... I thankfully found one on eBay which replaces this one ...

I have lost all faith in your integrity as a company and will be sure not to have a Raymarine on the next boat we purchase new in 2015.
The same thing happened to my E120. What was needed was a software update download.....did you explore this possibility?
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Old 12-04-2014, 20:15   #326
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Whew..............what a long thread. Does anyone remember the Jenneau "Rule 62" which diverted and left the caribe 1500 due to extreme seasickness. It ran aground during the night trying to enter the Lynard Cay cut at night in the Abacos. This ended badly because it took the life of Laura Zekal. The skipper was relying solely on his chartplotter entering a cut at night in raging seas. My point is, as many have mentioned, the chartplotter is only an aid to navigation not an end all. As Mike stated, using your eyes, polaroid glasses, reading the water and ocean floor as well as good judgement and knowledge, which in this case means Explorer chartbooks as well as a good local cruising guide ithe way to go. I wish we all could have local knowledge before we arrive but a fair subsitute can be a well written cruising guide.
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