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Old 27-02-2013, 22:29   #271
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Probably find the Insurance company owns Raymarine or some crazy commercial relationship.

Actually it would be interesting at the end of it all to know the Insurer's behaviour, often you only hear the bad stuff but as far as timing goes this seem's to be fairly quick, boat sold means settlement agreed means Rolf's life moves forward and that's what it's about.

Cheers.
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Old 27-02-2013, 22:32   #272
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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Originally Posted by Lagoon4us View Post
Probably find the Insurance company owns Raymarine or some crazy commercial relationship.

Actually it would be interesting at the end of it all to know the Insurer's behaviour, often you only hear the bad stuff but as far as timing goes this seem's to be fairly quick, boat sold means settlement agreed means Rolf's life moves forward and that's what it's about.

Cheers.
I agree totally, and I'm happy for Rolf. I'm just curious if Navionics has any culpability. I'm not even saying they should...I'm just curious. I feel safe in saying if this went to a US jury they would.
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Old 27-02-2013, 22:48   #273
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Yes that became the insurer's decision from when they accepted liability.

If a Navman or Tom Tom lead you up a one way street that was a dead end, you wrote your car off hitting the wall at the end of that street, i'm not so sure you'd succeed with a legal claim.

The dodgy 'RR' was a component in the loss but just a component.

Once amongst reef you need Poloroids, Screens are very difficult to read with Poloroids, flicking from glasses to no glasses screws up your detail vision in the same way a loss of 'night-vision' does.

I think you'll agree that piloting around reef demands a much reduced rate of speed, navigation helped if you have crew to call depth and watch for 'bommies' or '******-heads as we call them in Oz. You need to have all your cards ready to miss the wall........
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Old 27-02-2013, 22:49   #274
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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Originally Posted by ElGatoGordo View Post
well that's good news. I hope we hear more detail. I'd be hard pressed to believe that the ins just paid up w/o wanting something from Naviaonics, though I'm no lawyer. Maybe they will just sue after.
No point in second guessing what Rolf has to do.

Glad to hear he has settled with his insurance and is looking foward to Second Chance.

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Old 27-02-2013, 22:59   #275
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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No point in second guessing what Rolf has to do.

Glad to hear he has settled with his insurance and is looking foward to Second Chance.

Maybe 'AFTER LIFE' ......
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Old 27-02-2013, 23:07   #276
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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I think you'll agree that piloting around reef demands a much reduced rate of speed, navigation helped if you have crew to call depth and watch for 'bommies' or '******-heads as we call them in Oz. You need to have all your cards ready to miss the wall........
Very much so...I've said all along it's not the plotters fault. BUT...that "sugested route" is a huge red flag. Giving info, even wrong info, that someone then has to interpret is one thing (that's what a chart does) but to have a route marked that is SO CRAZY...
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Old 02-03-2013, 03:41   #277
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

News from 2006!

Navionics Announces New Bahamas Cartography | Navionics
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Old 02-03-2013, 08:26   #278
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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“Most charts of Bahamian waters are based on antiquated information and are riddled with inaccuracies making navigation a stressful and potentially dangerous activity,” said Bob Moshiri, vice president of sales and marketing, Navionics. “With our new Bahamas charts, boaters can rest assured that their Navionics cartography has the high level of accuracy and detail that has made us the electronic charts leader.”

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...................

(Bolding mine)
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Old 02-03-2013, 09:31   #279
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Dear Bob, I................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...........you Rolf.
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Old 05-03-2013, 23:21   #280
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

This thread has made me think about the plotter issue.

I got an old Navionics plotter , OpenCPN on the laptop , and again, Navionics on my cellphone. I now have serious questions bout wich cartography to choose when I'm ugrading the electronics .

Are Navionics recearching the essential user inputs? Do they check reported shallows and rocks , and then include them in their official relases?

If yes , how do they defend us paying to improve their database?

If no , as I see it , their mission is to buy data and selling it for profit , nothing else. If they have the data wich mariners need , and don't care to validate the information , I do not see them as a company with the goal to make the best charts they can.

This i important to me! I'm very satisfied with the Navionics Scandinavian chart , wich is made directly from the national surveys , (finished in 2010 , I think) , same as the SOLAS ENC's wich legaly replaces paper charts.

But if Navionics has data they don't care to share unless you buy access to their comunity layer, this Navionics plotter will be my last.

On the other hand , If they do, and I get the comunity layer AND (bi)annual updates for a reasonably premium over just updates, I would maybe consider the comunity thingy. But most likely , I woud just get the updates... (Pay for my own work? naaah..)

@Rolf: Man, I hope things goes better for you with "Second Chance" , I can only imagine what I would feel like if it was me.

About the mono/multi thing.. Modern boats of both types has this "cheating" bow , with a near vertical bow down to just below the waterline , while my old beater has curved line , all the way from the bow to the keel. I wonder if this influences how easy it is to get stuck on a reef?

I've run aground once in my firs year with a keel , luckliy it was on a sandy bottom, but it was at full tide. We used the spinnaker halyard , and towed the boat backwards while pulling the mast to the side.

.manitu
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Old 06-03-2013, 06:06   #281
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Originally Posted by manitu View Post
This thread has made me think about the plotter issue.

I got an old Navionics plotter , OpenCPN on the laptop , and again, Navionics on my cellphone. I now have serious questions bout wich cartography to choose when I'm ugrading the electronics .

Are Navionics recearching the essential user inputs? Do they check reported shallows and rocks , and then include them in their official relases?

If yes , how do they defend us paying to improve their database?

If no , as I see it , their mission is to buy data and selling it for profit , nothing else. If they have the data wich mariners need , and don't care to validate the information , I do not see them as a company with the goal to make the best charts they can.

This i important to me! I'm very satisfied with the Navionics Scandinavian chart , wich is made directly from the national surveys , (finished in 2010 , I think) , same as the SOLAS ENC's wich legaly replaces paper charts.

But if Navionics has data they don't care to share unless you buy access to their comunity layer, this Navionics plotter will be my last.

On the other hand , If they do, and I get the comunity layer AND (bi)annual updates for a reasonably premium over just updates, I would maybe consider the comunity thingy. But most likely , I woud just get the updates... (Pay for my own work? naaah..)

@Rolf: Man, I hope things goes better for you with "Second Chance" , I can only imagine what I would feel like if it was me.

About the mono/multi thing.. Modern boats of both types has this "cheating" bow , with a near vertical bow down to just below the waterline , while my old beater has curved line , all the way from the bow to the keel. I wonder if this influences how easy it is to get stuck on a reef?

I've run aground once in my firs year with a keel , luckliy it was on a sandy bottom, but it was at full tide. We used the spinnaker halyard , and towed the boat backwards while pulling the mast to the side.

.manitu
In Western Europe and Scandinavia the government charts are good so anything that comes from those will be okay. It is in areas where governments don't make charts like Bahamas and most of the Caribbean where trouble starts. I like C-map charts best in those areas.
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Old 06-03-2013, 09:40   #282
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

I always heard, "Don't try and navigate the Bahamas without the Explorer Chartbooks. I followed that advice and constantly compared them to my chartplotter info, as well as using them to plan my routes. I was last there for six months, with a five foot draft, and didn't touch the bottom once.
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Old 06-03-2013, 09:57   #283
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I always heard, "Don't try and navigate the Bahamas without the Explorer Chartbooks. I followed that advice and constantly compared them to my chartplotter info, as well as using them to plan my routes. I was last there for six months, with a five foot draft, and didn't touch the bottom once.
We went through the Exumas in 2003 with Explorer charts, 6'2" draft and never touched botom. I don't remember how accurate my C-Map charts were back then, but I noticed major impovements with them since then. Here in the West Caribbean they are best you can get, but you still need cruising guides to get to every spot we like.
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Old 06-03-2013, 10:10   #284
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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Originally Posted by manitu View Post
Are Navionics recearching the essential user inputs? Do they check reported shallows and rocks , and then include them in their official relases?

If yes , how do they defend us paying to improve their database?

If no , as I see it , their mission is to buy data and selling it for profit , nothing else. If they have the data wich mariners need , and don't care to validate the information , I do not see them as a company with the goal to make the best charts they can.
The world has come to appreciate the value of community-sourced information. Hell, the vast majority of the world's websites run on freely-available open-source servers, software that is primarily maintained by volunteers and enthusiasts.

Yes there's a cost to adding that community capability to a commercial product, but that cost should be regarded as a marketing/improvement expense, because the feature has tremendous value as a hook to draw and keep users.

Charging for access to community-sourced data is a big error on Navionic's part, in my opinion. The data was provided free, it shouldn't be a source of profit.
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Old 06-03-2013, 10:51   #285
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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....
...
It is in areas where governments don't make charts like Bahamas and most of the Caribbean where trouble starts. ...
....
Have a look at US chart 26286
Click image for larger version

Name:	Guana-Fowl-26286.png
Views:	123
Size:	206.1 KB
ID:	56312
and compare with the Navionics chart that was used on "Next Life".
We still don't know on what survey, Navionics chart is based on, if any....
As they refuse to come clear with the facts, we can only guess.
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