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Old 24-02-2013, 22:23   #226
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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Pink Floyd (Roger Waters, really):

I love the community effort but I have a hard time believing that after a year of using this one has to PAY for it? For access to community data?!

I agree completely. In the past year, I have spent over $700 on Navionics charts... coming up on the anniversary of that, and I'm now having to pay for community data? Doesn't seem right.
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Old 24-02-2013, 22:37   #227
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

It seems that the real lesson here has nothing to do with paper-vs-electronic, or skipper skills, or poor markings, or incorrect charts, but rather that you should not be sailing a boat that you cannot afford to insure.

It appears that no amount of skill or caution will completely negate the possibility of a hard grounding wherever hard ground is present, and that if you cannot afford to lose your boat, you cannot afford to sail it.
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Old 25-02-2013, 01:55   #228
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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It seems that the real lesson here has nothing to do with paper-vs-electronic, or skipper skills, or poor markings, or incorrect charts, but rather that you should not be sailing a boat that you cannot afford to insure.
I can't even guess where in this whole thread THAT lesson is. You must be reading the thread about losing a boat that wasn't insured and complaining about that...though I never saw that thead

If the lesson is ANYTHING but DON'T HIT A REEF...I'll eat my shirt
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Old 25-02-2013, 04:15   #229
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So reloaded the navionics hd on a new tablet we just got for work. And did the higher detail download for the berry islands in the bahamas anchorage t shows recommended routes using red lines. If you zoom in it clearly says "recommended route" interesting.
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Old 25-02-2013, 04:53   #230
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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Its just a layer you can turn off. You dont need to see it.


I think its a great idea. I run Navionics charts on Mavamatics on iPad and it doesnt have that feature. I would like it as I have enjoyed Active Captain on iPad and found the user notes on it excellent!
yes I know that, that is not point. point is that then any one can "make" navionics charts. they will use information from someone who does not know how paper charts looks like or how to take bearing to lighthouse but they will "discover" rock using their iphone and "report" it to navionics. some of them do not know how to read depth on the chart.
.....and navionic will then sell to me that same chart

Maybe my English is not good enough, but I understand that "cruiser chart editing future" in this way.

reading some of posts around CF I think that psycho test should be compulsory for anyone buying boat
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Old 25-02-2013, 04:59   #231
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reading some of posts around CF I think that psycho test should be compulsory for anyone buying boat
This is one for the CF collection of historic quotes
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Old 25-02-2013, 05:23   #232
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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I have said this before: I wouldn't mind if they remove every buoy, marker, range, sign, lightship, racon and what more they put in place!
yes, you wouldn't mind, as long as they stay on your fancy chartplotter. I wonder would you think the same if your chartplotter look like this..

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Old 25-02-2013, 05:42   #233
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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.....and navionic will then sell to me that same chart
Well as you dont know exactly what happens because you dont use the system its a bit hard for you to unserstand if you are right or wrong.

So you can't really be too strong in your condemnation.
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Old 25-02-2013, 07:00   #234
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yes, you wouldn't mind, as long as they stay on your fancy chartplotter. I wonder would you think the same if your chartplotter look like this..
You don't understand... my chartplotter does look like that for the area's we sail or, even worse, it shows more features that are missing or wrong.

On a world scale, there are not so many countries that can afford to put up markers and other aids and maintain them. They don't even have a chart made so we use an old Admiralty chart from hundreds of years ago...

There is a whole group of cruisers, also on CF, that have been doing this for a long time, never crash, go anywhere, don't trust any map, study and use new technology like radar (sarcastic but many still find this "new"), satnav and sonar amongst other things but always, always use their eyeballs and make very sure the cut through the reef exists etc.

Also, sailors making maps for sailors is way older than governments making maps for sailors. It was also how most of the world was discovered by the Europeans, and it can be the future of maps and charts when software allows this. I just refuse to pay for data supplied for free by the community. That will fail because the community will create their own, free, version of it.
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Old 25-02-2013, 08:30   #235
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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I agree completely. In the past year, I have spent over $700 on Navionics charts... coming up on the anniversary of that, and I'm now having to pay for community data? Doesn't seem right.
This has been a very interesting thread especially with an executive from Navionics directly adding to it.

Let me see if I understand it all...

I'm expected to buy hundreds to thousands of dollars of Navionics charts. Then, because they don't license the best chart data out there like the other manufacturers do (Explorer Charts - I've been using them for years on paper and now digitally), then we're all expected to fix their charts for them? And what do we get for this? Free charts? Free updates? Nope. We get the ability to pay for next year's update all over again at the full price.

I grew tired of Navionics chart data - it's the worst out there. I switched to something else last year - doesn't matter what it is but it's a PC-based system where I have chart data options from multiple sources. So had I put in many hours of adding to the Navionics community layer, would it be available there? I don't see any option for it. I called my nav software company - the answer is no. Their community data is only on Raymarine and, guess where else, Navionics iPad products (more $$ to buy the charts another time).

This all seems like a way to lock people into Navionics. Their charts are inferior. Major manufacturers are jumping ship - I just saw how B&G now has both C-Map (who use Explorer charts) and Navionics. I have great respect for B&G (http://www.bandg.com). So if they've moved to better data, why would I want to stay?
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Old 25-02-2013, 11:04   #236
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Responding to why should we pay to access the community edits?

There is a cost associated with creating and maintaining the infrastructure that supports the community edits: designers and software engineers need to be paid; servers that ensure 24/7 service all over the world need to be paid; cartographers need to be paid; etc

Expecting to use the infrastructure for free is like expecting to use the infrastructure of your yacht club for free: even though some of the work is done on a voluntary basis by some of the club members, there is a cost associated with the infrastructure that must be paid via membership fees.

That said, on our mobile products and soon on our website the access to the community edits comes at no additional charge
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Old 25-02-2013, 11:09   #237
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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I can't even guess where in this whole thread THAT lesson is. You must be reading the thread about losing a boat that wasn't insured and complaining about that...though I never saw that thead

If the lesson is ANYTHING but DON'T HIT A REEF...I'll eat my shirt
The lesson seems to be "somebody is going to hit a reef, and it could be you no matter how good your chart is, how many backup methods you, or how carefully you watch your depth"

Ergo - don't sail a boat you can't afford to reef.

This thread is chock full of theories on how the disaster could/should have been avoided, followed in short order by further explanations how the suggested precautions would not have prevented the problem at all.

"Always sail when the sun is at the right angle while keeping a careful watch just in front of your bow while wearing polarized sunglasses"....

Seriously? I'd rather risk losing a boat than spend 10 years sailing like that!
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Old 25-02-2013, 11:25   #238
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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Originally Posted by ArtM View Post
The lesson seems to be "somebody is going to hit a reef, and it could be you no matter how good your chart is, how many backup methods you, or how carefully you watch your depth"

Ergo - don't sail a boat you can't afford to reef.

This thread is chock full of theories on how the disaster could/should have been avoided, followed in short order by further explanations how the suggested precautions would not have prevented the problem at all.

"Always sail when the sun is at the right angle while keeping a careful watch just in front of your bow while wearing polarized sunglasses"....

Seriously? I'd rather risk losing a boat than spend 10 years sailing like that!
Don't sail the South Pacific then because entering Lagoon's, navigating around reef requires timing and care or you'll become meat for a thread.

Reef-work is very simple if rules are observed, tragic if not, the gist of this thread is 'mis-leading information' leading to the event, Rolf's confidence was built on his previous experience being all good.

Plainly an error has occurred where a line that was possibly for a totally different purpose became a recommended route, if this was a community edit then by what Guiseppe has said the authors name will show on that route with de-clutter off. If not it's an error of Navionics making but i must ask if in such a heavily traversed area 'why hasn't it ever been mentioned previous'?

Or has it??

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Old 25-02-2013, 11:38   #239
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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Reef-work is very simple if rules are observed, tragic if not, the gist of this thread is 'mis-leading information' leading to the event, Rolf's confidence was built on his previous experience being all good.

Plainly an error has occurred where a line that was possibly for a totally different purpose became a recommended route, if this was a community edit then by what Guiseppe has said the authors name will show on that route with de-clutter off. If not it's an error of Navionics making but i must ask if in such a heavily traversed area 'why hasn't it ever been mentioned previous'?

Or has it??

Cheers
Rolf himself stated that he was on the lookout for the reefs, but due to some combination of sun angle, trajectory, and probably sea condition he was unable to see it. This did not result in a simple grounding, or light hull damage, but apparantly the complete removal of the catamaran's bottom - we seem to have discovered a new weakness of catamaran design!

The mystery of the line seems to have a number of interpretations, including the one you mentioned, and also that the line should not be interpreted as a direct course, but rather a general path, requiring careful navigation through the reefs in the area.

It seems that some charts show the reefs in very obvious, cartoon like style while others illustrate them as nothing more than an area of varying depth. Everyone has their favorite guide, chart, or navigation technique - yet it seems that many or most of them have been shown to be insufficient in avoid this particular wreckage.
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Old 25-02-2013, 12:08   #240
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Art, Having over the years salvaged different vessels from reef groundings/strandings etc i have to say reef and rocks have no mercy on a boats hull.

To say this is a weakness in Catamaran design is just silly.

Grab a grinder and put a thin cutting wheel in it, now try cutting a sample of steel, aluminium, timber and GRP which one do you think will be sliced like a knife through butter?


The hard cold facts are that 'no boat' can be designed to strike, then pound on reef and rocks and survive unscathed.

You cannot effectively see reef with the sun in front of you and the result can be and was, in this case, calamitous BUT Rolf was lead astray by his confidence. Hence the discussion..

Cheers
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