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Old 23-02-2013, 19:24   #166
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Two comments:

1) the repeated lack of spaces in that post make it REALLY hard to read! Was it pasted from someplace? Like a canned response?

2) the community has been saying there was a problem with this for a long time, and I suspect it still will be. The source of the data is the issue. And there lots of issues on every chart. I use the NOAA charts on Open CPN and I don't trust them at all for depths! BUT...and I'm saying this as a potential customer who reads people's opinions in places like CF...the continued issues people report with Navionics and the lack of response people report makes me think I need to look at other sources. For the Bahamas, that's clearly Explorer. Now what would make me think Navionics was going to fix this would be a statement that says HOW they will obtain better data. And no...community sourcing ISN'T ok for a "real" chart. I love Active Captain...but I'm NOT going to make a potentially serious decision based on it! If I'm expecting to use a chart to enter a difficult situation, I'm expecting the info to come from a professional.

All that said, everyone agrees this was not JUST Navionics fault. The captain makes the decision and lives with the results. Eyes and an abundance of caution were the only things that could have prevented this.
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Old 23-02-2013, 19:39   #167
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

1 What level of Navionics was it - 'bronze' not 'platinum'?
2 Does anyone pop a small crew member up on the x trees wearing polaroids to spot rocks, bomas etc?
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Old 23-02-2013, 22:39   #168
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shanaly View Post
1 What level of Navionics was it - 'bronze' not 'platinum'?
2 Does anyone pop a small crew member up on the x trees wearing polaroids to spot rocks, bomas etc?
Fresh out of little ones other than holiday visitors, so we installed a 'RAYMARINE' Camera at the speaders looking forward and down some time ago, this relays directly to the E120 Plotter screen. Because when your manoeuvring in reef areas a plotter is of little help.

Having a 100deg picture looking down from above is fantastic, it becomes another tool in the kit.

A GO-PRO could be used but to what screen? Maybe they can communicate to newer plotters?
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Old 23-02-2013, 23:35   #169
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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Originally Posted by Lagoon4us View Post
Fresh out of little ones other than holiday visitors, so we installed a 'RAYMARINE' Camera at the speaders looking forward and down some time ago, this relays directly to the E120 Plotter screen. Because when your manoeuvring in reef areas a plotter is of little help.

Having a 100deg picture looking down from above is fantastic, it becomes another tool in the kit.

A GO-PRO could be used but to what screen? Maybe they can communicate to newer plotters?

Go-Pro can communicate wirelessly with a tablet or smartphone. You can run up to 16 cameras off your phone. My new setup has an iPad running backup navigation software and controlling the stereo system mounted on the dash near the chart plotter screen, with a Go-Pro at the masthead. Now I just need to get a mount that pans for the camera, to help get fun footage under way.
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Old 23-02-2013, 23:41   #170
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Wer'e thinking alike on the huge advantage of eyeball height above reef, the plotter screen is great advantage as it's not looking down at a small screen, is their no way 'GO-PRO'S' can communicate with plotters?

We mounted our E120 into a vertical pod rather than the flat position so it's more line of sight.

Has worked out great in summer for the Italian ladies sunbaking as their idiot men cut across our bows!

A 'GO-PRO' signal translator might be needed........
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Old 24-02-2013, 00:22   #171
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Ooooh that sounds COOL!
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Old 24-02-2013, 02:28   #172
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Sorry, I am posting again because I realize in the copy-paste process a lot of spaces were deleted, making the post unreadable.


My name is Giuseppe Carnevali and I am the founder/president of Navionics. I would like to first of all thank Captain Rolf for publicly sharing his unfortunate experience in order to help us all improve safety at sea.This cannot have been easy for him. But he is in good company because I would argue that few boaters have not yet had some grounding experience.

As already pointed out by many contributors in this forum, nautical charts – whether digital or paper, government or private – are NOT designed for blind navigation, particularly in restricted waters.

As a person with over 60 years of sailing and 20 years of piloting airplanes under my belt, let me elaborate on the difference between visual and instrumental navigation.
Blind navigation is done on airplanes by following procedures, controlled by ground and airborne radars, transponders, GPS and other equipment, that ensure a very wide separation amongst aircraft and between aircraft and the ground. When descending near ground, navigation switches to a host of other instruments, each with triple redundancy, like radio altimeters, ILS etc; GPS is NOT allowed for blind navigation near hazards, much less for landing! Airplanes that have only GPS must constantly fly visual, which means use GPS for orientation, but be able to always “see and avoid” obstacles and other aircraft.

At sea there is no instrumental navigation infrastructure comparable to aviation, and therefore no instrumental navigation charts, and no blind navigation.The GPS available on boats is equivalent to the GPS available on cars and light aircraft: meant to be used for orientation while driving visually, possibly with the aid of other instruments like sonar and radar, and cross checking every possible source of information. The nautical chart, whether paper or electronic, is not designed and built for instrumental navigation, but for orientating visual navigation.

A second point to be kept well in mind is that all nautical charts – paper, electronic, government, private - have errors. No exception. The recent grounding of the USS Guardian (on a reef that was reported on the US Government chart to be about 8 miles from its real position), is only one example out of many.
We in the cartography industry strive for perfection, employing multiple sources, modern survey methods and user feedback. But we know that, due to constant natural and manmade changes in the environment, the limitations of our technology and human error, no one will ever produce a perfect chart. With over a billion features in our cartography database, even an accuracy rate of 99.999% (!) would still leave room for some 10,000 potential inaccuracies.

So what can we do to improve safety and make boating more enjoyable?

No one knows the seas better than the locals and no organization can deploy as many eyes as the boating community. It is for this reason that Navionics has empowered boaters to edit their charts, and share in real time the corrections with the entire community through the "Community Edits" service. A sophisticated registration and transparency system identifies user edits and their authors and keeps them in a layer separate from the validated database to prevent abuse, which in any event can be reported in real time.
This is augmented by the "Freshest Data" service, which allows you to download updated charts every day, as many times as you want, for free for a year and at a reduced price thereafter.
Last but not least, Navionics has recently introduced the award winning "SonarCharts": instead of throwing away your sonar data, if you save them and upload them to our website, we improve the accuracy of the charts with them, and share the results with the community. This service is now active in select areas, but will be global before the end of this year.

Thanks to everyone for this thoughtful discussion

Giuseppe
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Old 24-02-2013, 02:37   #173
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Thank you Giuseppe agree totally with your comment The nautical chart, whether paper or electronic, is not designed and built for instrumental navigation, but for orientating visual navigation. We are quite amazed just how accurate GPS is nowadays.

BUT can you tell me if the track that Rolf followed was shown on the chart as a recommended route or not?

We use Navionics Gold in the Med.

Cheers and thanks.
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Old 24-02-2013, 02:51   #174
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giuseppe Carnev View Post
Sorry, I am posting again because I realize in the copy-paste process a lot of spaces were deleted, making the post unreadable.
Fair play for chipping in .

Whilst I understand your general point that charts (paper or electronic) are simply one tool for navigation..............I am confused about whether the Navionics Chart had the route used by Capt Rolf marked as "recommended", and if so where did that come from? (Navionics? the original source data (dating from when?) or from a User?).....

.....I ask because it does look "tight" (at best!), at least from the other charts / screenshots posted here.......for a "recommended" route I would expect the route to be conservative at least, rather than it being merely possible (with a fair wind and a good lookout......and with fingers crossed? ).
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Old 24-02-2013, 03:03   #175
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

It was a dashed line (as opposed to solid) which means uncertain, look out.
While the "see and avoid" visual navigation rules apply always, including solid lines, the dashed line indicates the need for extra caution.
The Med is generally far easier to navigate than Bahamas, and off the top of my head we do not have recommended routes there.
Thank you for using our Gold charts; I would encourage you to invest a few more Euros to get the Navionics mobile app, so you can participate in the Community Edits. Besides the added safety, you will more than save the price of the app just by checking fuel prices on it ...

Indeed the increasing accuracy of GPS can induce complacency and overconfidence, but again a GPS on a boat is not much different from one in a car: no matter how accurate your car GPS is getting, even in zero traffic would you ever blind navigate your car with it?

By the way, several updates have already been published and continue to be published in the Exumas on a daily basis, so please make sure to download your updates for the area. Infact the same applies everywhere, as we publish about 2,000 updates per day worldwide
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Old 24-02-2013, 03:43   #176
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giuseppe Carnev View Post
It was a dashed line (as opposed to solid) which means uncertain, look out.
While the "see and avoid" visual navigation rules apply always, including solid lines, the dashed line indicates the need for extra caution.
The Med is generally far easier to navigate than Bahamas, and off the top of my head we do not have recommended routes there.
Thank you for using our Gold charts; I would encourage you to invest a few more Euros to get the Navionics mobile app, so you can participate in the Community Edits. Besides the added safety, you will more than save the price of the app just by checking fuel prices on it ...

Indeed the increasing accuracy of GPS can induce complacency and overconfidence, but again a GPS on a boat is not much different from one in a car: no matter how accurate your car GPS is getting, even in zero traffic would you ever blind navigate your car with it?

By the way, several updates have already been published and continue to be published in the Exumas on a daily basis, so please make sure to download your updates for the area. Infact the same applies everywhere, as we publish about 2,000 updates per day worldwide
Thank you, I agree once more there are no recommended routes on our Med charts, you've opened my eyes as to the active updating, i for one would have underestimated that.

I can see the benefit of user feedback being applied to your live corrections, quite amazing.

Having watched this technology grow from very occasional fixes by SATNAV in the early 80's to now having a GPS system with 6 to 12 satellites giving a cross fix is amazing.

The charts we have were the charts aboard when we bought the boat, when we cross the Atlantic in 2014 we shall purchase the necessary.

Cheers.
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Old 24-02-2013, 06:10   #177
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giuseppe Carnev View Post
It was a dashed line (as opposed to solid) which means uncertain, look out.
While the "see and avoid" visual navigation rules apply always, including solid lines, the dashed line indicates the need for extra caution.
The Med is generally far easier to navigate than Bahamas, and off the top of my head we do not have recommended routes there.
Thank you for using our Gold charts; I would encourage you to invest a few more Euros to get the Navionics mobile app, so you can participate in the Community Edits. Besides the added safety, you will more than save the price of the app just by checking fuel prices on it ...

Indeed the increasing accuracy of GPS can induce complacency and overconfidence, but again a GPS on a boat is not much different from one in a car: no matter how accurate your car GPS is getting, even in zero traffic would you ever blind navigate your car with it?

By the way, several updates have already been published and continue to be published in the Exumas on a daily basis, so please make sure to download your updates for the area. Infact the same applies everywhere, as we publish about 2,000 updates per day worldwide

You write
Quote:
It was a dashed line (as opposed to solid) which means uncertain, look out.
I don't know if Navionics try to be standard compliant or not.
The use of a dashed line in the passage where the grounding took place, can only mean a "Maritime limit in general", according to international standards. On your chart it is mentioned as a route, and you now develop this further, with a non standard explanation.

A track can be marked by a solid line if the recommended track is based on a system of fixed marks. A range line for example.
A track can also be marked by a dashed line if it's not based on a system of fixed marks. In this case it is always marked with arrowheads as well.
A dashed line without arrowheads can only mark maritime limits.

Based on this, what other private, not internationally recognized symbols are Navionics using? Do you regard the use of non standard symbols as being safe?

What survey does Navionics base the recommended track between Guana Cay and Fowl Cay on? No other chart maker has a recommended track here. Some has a dashed line area limit through the passage, but nothing more.
Just a straight, no nonsense, answer will do.

I would also like an answer to this question.
The imaginary Sandy Island west of northern New Caledonia appears, or appeared, on Navionics charts. What fact did you base this on?
No official chart maker has the imaginary "island" on their charts, in any current edition.

Thomas
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Old 24-02-2013, 06:26   #178
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I think the " interesting Factor" of this thread just went up!

I guess if you're the boss, you ought to be able to take the heat!
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Old 24-02-2013, 06:30   #179
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giuseppe Carnev View Post

My name is Giuseppe Carnevali and I am the founder/president of Navionics.


Thank you for coming on and posting in our forum.

Its great to know you take our concerns seriously.

An update to that chart need to be done quickly because in rough weather by the time visual confirmation that its a bad cut it could be very difficult to turn aroun against the wind, current and waves.



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Old 24-02-2013, 06:49   #180
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Does a Navionics chart in the Caribbean have an 'in-house' schedule of marks lines and meanings where 'recommended routes'/ caution etc are depicted? Ours are Northern hemisphere and i've not seen them.

I would much rather have NO recommended routes than misleading info always preferring to plot our own course.

I do totally agree that these charts and all charts for that matter are in Guiseppe's words for orientating visual navigation.

An island that doesn't exist must have been logged by contributors, the checking process as misled as the report, however it's far preferable than an island existing but not noted. So i guess there are a few accuracy issues which are both dangerous and embarrassing.

As Guiseppe alluded to 'bad detail in, bad detail out'. Sad this particular piece of bad detail became a link in the loss of 'Next Life'.

Strengthens the policy of using as many sources of information possible.

Cheers
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