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Old 19-02-2013, 03:30   #136
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Rolf I am also very sorry for the loss of your yacht. I am sure gut wrenching.

Certainly a lesson in not trusting Navionics charts. Regardless of their disclaimer we tend to rely on them.

On my yacht with Raymarine E120W and Navionics at a certain zoom level that I use a rock called Horn Rock between Auckland and Great Barrier island disappears from the chart!

I have also had the location wander several hundred metres and back slowly with no warnings.
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Old 19-02-2013, 09:59   #137
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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Originally Posted by Kettlewell View Post
Are you sure about that? In the past Explorer Charts were completely different than Wavey Line, though maybe they collaborate now?
John,
Thanks for bringing this thread to our attention. To help clarify the confusion, Explorer Charts are produced from private surveys by the Explorer team of Monty and Sara Lewis aboard SARANADE. They have been collecting on-site data since their first winter's cruise in 1989. Explorer Charts is not affiliated with Wavey Lines nor do we supply any data to Navionics.

Kate Fears
Executive Editor, Explorer Chartbook® Series
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Old 19-02-2013, 11:55   #138
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Kate: Thanks for the clarification. Do you have any comment on this post from earlier in this same thread?

Quote:
Heres an example where the Explorer charts are wrong.
The screen capture shows the route (of the boundary markers for the disbelievers) getting to Spannish Wells.
It clearly shows a route between Little Egg and Egg Island (marked "Mangrove")

Depth in meters.

But I understand its silted up and one cant get through and havent been able for years.
Maybe someone who knows can confirm/deny it.
And the other route straight over a lump of coral in the East of the chart.

Plus the route in between could be discussed too!

So the Bahamas need careful attention.
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Old 19-02-2013, 15:15   #139
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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The screen capture shows the route (of the boundary markers for the disbelievers)
No one is saying the magenta lines in question are not depicting a route but that the incorrect recognised chart symbolism is been used, something that is taught in even the most basic of nav courses....

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I am always amazed at how quick many sailors are to adopt a line for a route or a bunch of waypoints from another cruiser...

You just don't do that, you plot your own route and your own waypoints.
Because it means you don't have to use your brain, especially if your own nav skills are a bit shaky and you have no local knowledge....it also gives you a target if it all turns to poo instead of beating yourself up...

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I am amazed how eyeball navigation is explained as only needed when the sun is behind you, and that you can just go ahead when the sun is in front of you...

You just don't do that, you come in with the sun behind you or you don't come in unless guided by local experts or your own dinghy with depth sounder.
That's a given, or so i thought....

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And we all see how these simple rules are ignored, leading to disaster. And we will all see this again, and again, and again.
Agreed, a similar incident happened around here not that long ago, although luckily for the owners without the same disastrous result....

My comments are not aimed at the unfortunate vessel or her occupants, for whom it must have been a devestating experiance, just a general observation of what seems to be an increasing trend to rely on "others" information rather than ones own abilities to deduce a safe passage themselves, the all to frequent request of "anyone have the waypoints for xxxxxxxx" seems to be the catch cry of the day.....


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Old 19-02-2013, 16:09   #140
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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John,
Thanks for bringing this thread to our attention. To help clarify the confusion, Explorer Charts are produced from private surveys by the Explorer team of Monty and Sara Lewis aboard SARANADE. They have been collecting on-site data since their first winter's cruise in 1989. Explorer Charts is not affiliated with Wavey Lines nor do we supply any data to Navionics.

Kate Fears
Executive Editor, Explorer Chartbook® Series
explorercharts, So is this your data?

Garmin Bluecharts Mobile uses BlueChart g2 marine cartography
Featuring data from Explorer Charts for the Bahamas
Features detailed coverage from Eleuthera Island, Bahamas, to the Dominican Republic, including the Bahamian islands of Great Exuma, Great Inagua, Mayaguana, and many others. Also includes detailed coverage of the Jamaican, Haitian, and Dominican coasts in their entirety, the easternmost quarter of Cuba, and the Turks and Caicos Islands.
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Old 19-02-2013, 16:19   #141
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Kate (explorercharts).

Stick with us, we’ll really appreciate your expert input - and not just on this thread.
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Old 19-02-2013, 18:32   #142
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

My wife and I cruised the Exumas and far out islands extensively in the early 90's. We had a primitive gps(Pronav), a Chart Kit and the Yachtsman's Guide. Even then it was well known that charts of these areas were based on less than optimal info. The gps was making that obvious. The way I used my gps was to set a waypoint a half mile or so off the entrance to a cut and use it like the "outer marker" on and instrument approach. Once I arrived at that point I would switch to the chart and Yachtman's Guide (which I had already reviewed). Most importantly, if we had not been in the cut before the wife was stationed on the bow w/her polarized glasses. We have been in an out of the cut where this accident occured many times. Frankly, the surrounding rocks and cays would not suggest to me that going between Guana and Fowl Cays was the preferred route. The area to the east(?) visually looks to be much more open. We are going back to the Bahamas next year for another extended cruise-this time w/a chartplotter. But I think I'll still do it the "old fashion way". We humans are just to prone to screwing up.
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Old 19-02-2013, 18:44   #143
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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We have been in an out of the cut where this accident occured many times. Frankly, the surrounding rocks and cays would not suggest to me that going between Guana and Fowl Cays was the preferred route. The area to the east(?) visually looks to be much more open. We are going back to the Bahamas next year for another extended cruise-this time w/a chartplotter. But I think I'll still do it the "old fashion way". We humans are just to prone to screwing up.
Sounds like a good plan. Reading about this unfortunate incident reminds me of the President Lyndon Johnson quote when he was arm twisting some fellow politician to vote his way. I am paraphrasing it for this discussion:

'Who are you going to believe your Apple I phone with a Navonics app or your own lying eyes!'
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Old 19-02-2013, 19:03   #144
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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--- We have been in an out of the cut where this accident occured many times. ---
Really?
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Old 19-02-2013, 20:10   #145
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Where I boat there are channel markers & if you leave the channel you better know where the rock dikes & wing dams are. I've seen several boats that have been extensively damaged because the pilot wasn't paying close attention to his position. Some of these have been new boaters but a fair number have been on the river many years. Sometimes it's a change in water level and a area they've traveled thru before, sometimes it's a deadhead under the surface.
The corp term for the dikes & wing dams is training structure & they're marked on my paper charts & electronic charts. Wanting to get off the channel to anchor & not hit any of these hazards to navigation I bought a interphase FLS as a aid in avoiding them. A person on the bow would be no help with the murky water. After reading of this accident in this thread & the lack of good charts for the Bahamas do any of you & especially the owner think forward looking sonar would of be use in navigating areas like this. Sorry for the loss of your boat I hope things are sorted out to your satisfaction.
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Old 19-02-2013, 20:19   #146
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Threads like this make me happy we draw 8.5 feet. I'm so cautious about depth I wouldn't be anywhere near there.
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Old 19-02-2013, 20:34   #147
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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After reading of this accident in this thread & the lack of good charts for the Bahamas do any of you & especially the owner think forward looking sonar would of be use in navigating areas like this. Sorry for the loss of your boat I hope things are sorted out to your satisfaction.
Until you've sailed there you can't believe the clarity of the water, and using your eyeballs when making close approaches is the best and safest way to go. Yes, I know there are times when the sun is in your eyes or it is late in the day, but that is when you only use the most well-trodden routes and/or get on the radio and ask for help. After awhile your eyes will tell you the water depth well ahead of your boat--forward looking brain.
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Old 19-02-2013, 22:38   #148
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

Perhaps sonar could be useful but only at great expense.

Some Furuno sonars

Products:Sonar | Marine Equipment For Fishing Vessels | Business Fields & Product List | FURUNO's Product Site

Dashew has some comment on using sonar on his motor vessel. Very expensive system.

SetSail» Blog Archive » Sonar Navigation Where It Is Really Tight

Eyeball is hard to beat for the price.
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Old 19-02-2013, 22:55   #149
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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Eyeball is hard to beat for the price.
Best ever!!!

Actually I have a question...from a never-been but going this fall guy: What HEIGHT is best looking in the water? Not exact feet...but is higher better, or a low angle better?
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Old 19-02-2013, 23:18   #150
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Re: Lagoon 450 (Next Life) damaged in the Exuma, The Bahamas

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Best ever!!!

Actually I have a question...from a never-been but going this fall guy: What HEIGHT is best looking in the water? Not exact feet...but is higher better, or a low angle better?


Higher is better. I've known many South Pacific cruisers who have a crows nest for conning the boat through coral heads.
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