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Old 23-08-2017, 15:45   #76
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Re: I Don't Mean to Sound Uncharitable, But...

The collision between the cruiser HMS Hawke and the White Star Liner RMS Olympic, Capt E J Smith commanding, was one of the earliest examples of suction caused collisions. Shortly before the Hawke incident, a New York tug was nearly sunk by the Olympic in a situation like the last example in El Pinguino's article. In 1912 the liner New York was sucked free from her moorings and nearly swung into the side of the Titanic as she moved through Southhampton harbour. Excessive speed was a factor in the two collisions and the third near miss, but admittedly neither Olympic nor Titanic responded well to helm at lower speeds than they were going.
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Old 23-08-2017, 15:57   #77
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Re: I Don't Mean to Sound Uncharitable, But...

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Originally Posted by dgz3 View Post
It's pointless to pontificate too specifically from this distance. And certainly I am no trained marine accident investigator. Except in my own mind, of course, where I pretty much know everything about everything.

I doubt we will ever really know. There will be so many fingers pointing in so many directions no one will likely ever get the story straight. And if they do, they sure aren’t going to tell us. And does anyone here see anyone on that bridge piping up and saying,” I’m sorry. I screwed up. I steered us right into the path of that 600 foot long ship. It was all my fault"

The Navy knows it has a problem, though. They took a day off to "study basic seamanship.” That seems a good thing for a US Navy Destroyer captain to know.

From USA Today:

The U.S. Navy dismissed Vice Adm. Joseph Aucoin as commander of the 7th Fleet on Wednesday… Adm. Scott Swift, commander of U.S. Pacific Fleet, dismissed Aucoin "due to a loss of confidence in his ability to command,”...

Here are links to both their career high points:

Commander, U.S. 7th Fleet, Vice Adm. Joseph P. Aucoin > Commander, U.S. 7th Fleet > Display

Admiral Scott H. Swift | Commander, U.S. Pacific Fleet

Both these guys are pilots. Excuse me. Naval Aviators. Both have thousands of hours of flight time and thousands of carrier landings in F-14’s. Both have years of experience commanding air groups. And flying desks in “staff” positions.
But I don’t see anything in their background that would get them a job as an oil tanker or container ship captain.
I think this is a perfect example of ineptness and incompetence spreading from the top down.
Forgive me if I’m being “uncharitable.” But I’m thinking these are careerists and ticket punchers. Not seamen. I think Adm Swift should go one better and dismiss himself, too.

And I just don’t buy the steering failure story at all. Hacked or not. It may have seemed like a steering failure. A bridge full of tired young sailors. Someone looks up from their computer screen and sees a huge ship bearing down on them. Everybody starts yelling. People yelling conflicting orders. The joy stick twister twisting and joy sticking as hard as possible. In the slow motion perception of crisis, it may have seemed like the ship wasn’t responding.
But a destroyer is not a video game, is it? It doesn’t respond instantly. Those pesky laws of physics get in the way. So when the video gamer slams the stick all the way over, and the ship doesn’t instantly leap out of the way: Steering failure. Obviously. What else could it be?

And hacking the steering and control programs? Pure conspiracy theorist science fiction. Where was this hacker? On the tanker? On the container ship? On the fishing boat? In an airplane? Maybe he was in a cloaked submarine. Or a space ship. And what was his plan? “Ill seize control of a destroyer and put a dent in it. That will EMBARRASS America to death!”
Are these hackers watching navy ships all over the world? Just waiting for that one opportune moment when a burst from their super secret hacker ray gun can cause one ship to bump into another?
Unless someone can clearly explain EXACTLY how, from where, and by who that could be done and show some evidence of it having been done, I think it ridiculous. I think i have about as much chance of bringing down the space station with my iPhone.

Oh, I know! The Pleiadians did it!

As someone else here said; Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity
What experience do you have with hackers to defiantly say something it is ridiculous? Yeah thought so. Iranians took control of a U.S. drone and took hostages in the Persian Gulf after hacking the gps signals. Stuxtnet type virus on Chiniese made equipment aboard USN ships, impossible right? And thanks for calling US sailors stupid. Good luck with your Pleiadian friends.
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Old 23-08-2017, 16:48   #78
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Re: I Don't Mean to Sound Uncharitable, But...

Former USN Sub Sailor here. On the surface we always had at least one lookout. Any traffic we would have two. We would always have one officer in charge at all times. Typically called the Officer of the Deck (OOD). The Captain is ultimately in charge. The XO wasn't second in command except on paper. They tended to be the 'bad cop' to let the captain be the good cop. The OOD would be 100% in charge when the CO was not on the bridge.

Sometimes things happen close together, it doesn't always mean things have changed. How many collisions has the Navy had in the last 5 years? 10?

Submarines run aground. Subs sometimes surface under fishing vessels.

I'm surprised to hear of another incident with the USN. So sorry for the dead sailors.

If I had to place blame this early, I would blame human error. I don't blame the leadership. I don't blame Trump of Obama. I don't blame hacking at this time.

I surely look forward to the results of any investigation.

It will be nice to talk about the great things the USN is doing like laser weapons and rail guns.
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Old 23-08-2017, 17:52   #79
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Re: I Don't Mean to Sound Uncharitable, But...

2 destroyers and a cruiser all had collisions. Also another cruiser ran aground in Tokyo Bay trying to anchor. All in the last year and all have the software and missiles to take down ballistic missiles. Not all destroyers have been upgraded. All were part of 7th fleet. I see the admiral is looking for a new job.
However little sleep crews may be getting, they get a lot more than WWII sailors did.
I served on older destroyers. They have power to spare and turn much sharper than freighters. Either something is wrong with their electronics and lookout observation isn't up to par or unqualified people are on watch. Failed electronics don't excuse the collision.
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Old 23-08-2017, 18:12   #80
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Re: I Don't Mean to Sound Uncharitable, But...

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Originally Posted by FlyingScot View Post
Former USN Sub Sailor here. On the surface we always had at least one lookout. Any traffic we would have two. We would always have one officer in charge at all times. Typically called the Officer of the Deck (OOD). The Captain is ultimately in charge. The XO wasn't second in command except on paper. They tended to be the 'bad cop' to let the captain be the good cop. The OOD would be 100% in charge when the CO was not on the bridge.

Sometimes things happen close together, it doesn't always mean things have changed. How many collisions has the Navy had in the last 5 years? 10?

Submarines run aground. Subs sometimes surface under fishing vessels.

I'm surprised to hear of another incident with the USN. So sorry for the dead sailors.

If I had to place blame this early, I would blame human error. I don't blame the leadership. I don't blame Trump of Obama. I don't blame hacking at this time.

I surely look forward to the results of any investigation.

It will be nice to talk about the great things the USN is doing like laser weapons and rail guns.
Thread drift
Here ya go.
US Navy's electromagnetic railgun leaves the lab for field demos
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Old 23-08-2017, 18:31   #81
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Re: I Don't Mean to Sound Uncharitable, But...

Alaskaflyfish,

I must have missed the part where you explained who did it, why, from where, and how.
I also missed the evidence you must have mentioned somewhere. And your own programming/hacker skills that your definitive assessment and absolute declarations are based on.

"Iranians took control of a U.S. drone and took hostages in the Persian Gulf after hacking the gps signals. " You said.

You have done this? You know someone who has? Or could? If you wanted to take over a US Navy destroyer, you know who to call? Enlighten us. Better yet, call The Pentagon.

The idea that the Iranians "hacked" that drone is highly debatable and by no means regarded as fact. Despite the harping of numerous agenda based "news" web sites. Not to mention the baseless opining of various news consultants.
You can't believe everything you read online or hear on TV, you know.

What's more likely is that they simply jammed it. One report indicated it had crashed and broken into pieces and then been reassembled and painted for pics. That sounds as likely as any other explanation.
And there's a BIG difference between jamming an unmanned remote controlled drone and a warship.

The stuxnet virus was created by America and Israel to sabotage Iranian nuclear plant centrifuges. It subsequently "got out" over the internet and infected all kinds of stuff in countries all over the world. It reportedly did tremendous damage in China. Especially in hydroelectric plants.
Could it have gotten into some Chinese made equipment? Sure. Chinese conspiracy to destroy America? Doubtful. They're way more into technology theft.

This afternoon i was watching the navigation app on my iPhone while my location icon floated all around the county out to seven miles away. I was sitting on my couch at home. Perfectly stationary. It did this for about ten minutes. Iranian GPS hack? Chinese cyber warfare to take over my sofa? Or random solar/electromagnetic disturbance? What sounds more likely?

What happened to our hapless sailors in the Gulf of Persia debacle? Who knows. But I'm pretty sure you don't. It would appear that they were somewhat confused about where they were. Or maybe they thought they'd take a short cut and who would know? Has that ever happened to people in boats before? So any time a GPS fails or glitches on a boat or someone isn't where they're supposed to be, it's a hacker GPS cyber warfare spoof?

I think poor training, lackadaisical attitude on a routine trip, over reliance on electronics and lack of basic seamanship and piloting skills sounds far more likely. The navy punished several people over that incident. So that proves whose fault they thought it was.

I've blathered on way too much about this already. And i won't be baited again by groundless, conspiracy theories based on absolutely and utterly nothing.

As for my comment about the Pleiadians being responsible, look up the word facetious.

And did I call American Navy sailors stupid? I didn't actually. But stupid is as stupid does. There is another big hole in the side of another USN warship. I'd say there's some stupid goin' on somewhere. The question the Navy needs to answer is, how high up the chain of command does it go? And can it be fixed?
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Old 23-08-2017, 19:28   #82
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Re: I Don't Mean to Sound Uncharitable, But...

Quote:
Originally Posted by dgz3 View Post
Alaskaflyfish,

I must have missed the part where you explained who did it, why, from where, and how.
I also missed the evidence you must have mentioned somewhere. And your own programming/hacker skills that your definitive assessment and absolute declarations are based on.

"Iranians took control of a U.S. drone and took hostages in the Persian Gulf after hacking the gps signals. " You said.

You have done this? You know someone who has? Or could? If you wanted to take over a US Navy destroyer, you know who to call? Enlighten us. Better yet, call The Pentagon.

The idea that the Iranians "hacked" that drone is highly debatable and by no means regarded as fact. Despite the harping of numerous agenda based "news" web sites. Not to mention the baseless opining of various news consultants.
You can't believe everything you read online or hear on TV, you know.

What's more likely is that they simply jammed it. One report indicated it had crashed and broken into pieces and then been reassembled and painted for pics. That sounds as likely as any other explanation.
And there's a BIG difference between jamming an unmanned remote controlled drone and a warship.

The stuxnet virus was created by America and Israel to sabotage Iranian nuclear plant centrifuges. It subsequently "got out" over the internet and infected all kinds of stuff in countries all over the world. It reportedly did tremendous damage in China. Especially in hydroelectric plants.
Could it have gotten into some Chinese made equipment? Sure. Chinese conspiracy to destroy America? Doubtful. They're way more into technology theft.

This afternoon i was watching the navigation app on my iPhone while my location icon floated all around the county out to seven miles away. I was sitting on my couch at home. Perfectly stationary. It did this for about ten minutes. Iranian GPS hack? Chinese cyber warfare to take over my sofa? Or random solar/electromagnetic disturbance? What sounds more likely?

What happened to our hapless sailors in the Gulf of Persia debacle? Who knows. But I'm pretty sure you don't. It would appear that they were somewhat confused about where they were. Or maybe they thought they'd take a short cut and who would know? Has that ever happened to people in boats before? So any time a GPS fails or glitches on a boat or someone isn't where they're supposed to be, it's a hacker GPS cyber warfare spoof?

I think poor training, lackadaisical attitude on a routine trip, over reliance on electronics and lack of basic seamanship and piloting skills sounds far more likely. The navy punished several people over that incident. So that proves whose fault they thought it was.

I've blathered on way too much about this already. And i won't be baited again by groundless, conspiracy theories based on absolutely and utterly nothing.

As for my comment about the Pleiadians being responsible, look up the word facetious.

And did I call American Navy sailors stupid? I didn't actually. But stupid is as stupid does. There is another big hole in the side of another USN warship. I'd say there's some stupid goin' on somewhere. The question the Navy needs to answer is, how high up the chain of command does it go? And can it be fixed?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran...Q-170_incident

https://www.rt.com/usa/iran-drone-hack-stealth-943/
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Old 23-08-2017, 20:11   #83
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Re: I Don't Mean to Sound Uncharitable, But...

Quote:
Originally Posted by dgz3 View Post
Alaskaflyfish,

I must have missed the part where you explained who did it, why, from where, and how.
I also missed the evidence you must have mentioned somewhere. And your own programming/hacker skills that your definitive assessment and absolute declarations are based on.

"Iranians took control of a U.S. drone and took hostages in the Persian Gulf after hacking the gps signals. " You said.

You have done this? You know someone who has? Or could? If you wanted to take over a US Navy destroyer, you know who to call? Enlighten us. Better yet, call The Pentagon.

The idea that the Iranians "hacked" that drone is highly debatable and by no means regarded as fact. Despite the harping of numerous agenda based "news" web sites. Not to mention the baseless opining of various news consultants.
You can't believe everything you read online or hear on TV, you know.

What's more likely is that they simply jammed it. One report indicated it had crashed and broken into pieces and then been reassembled and painted for pics. That sounds as likely as any other explanation.
And there's a BIG difference between jamming an unmanned remote controlled drone and a warship.

The stuxnet virus was created by America and Israel to sabotage Iranian nuclear plant centrifuges. It subsequently "got out" over the internet and infected all kinds of stuff in countries all over the world. It reportedly did tremendous damage in China. Especially in hydroelectric plants.
Could it have gotten into some Chinese made equipment? Sure. Chinese conspiracy to destroy America? Doubtful. They're way more into technology theft.

This afternoon i was watching the navigation app on my iPhone while my location icon floated all around the county out to seven miles away. I was sitting on my couch at home. Perfectly stationary. It did this for about ten minutes. Iranian GPS hack? Chinese cyber warfare to take over my sofa? Or random solar/electromagnetic disturbance? What sounds more likely?

What happened to our hapless sailors in the Gulf of Persia debacle? Who knows. But I'm pretty sure you don't. It would appear that they were somewhat confused about where they were. Or maybe they thought they'd take a short cut and who would know? Has that ever happened to people in boats before? So any time a GPS fails or glitches on a boat or someone isn't where they're supposed to be, it's a hacker GPS cyber warfare spoof?

I think poor training, lackadaisical attitude on a routine trip, over reliance on electronics and lack of basic seamanship and piloting skills sounds far more likely. The navy punished several people over that incident. So that proves whose fault they thought it was.

I've blathered on way too much about this already. And i won't be baited again by groundless, conspiracy theories based on absolutely and utterly nothing.

As for my comment about the Pleiadians being responsible, look up the word facetious.

And did I call American Navy sailors stupid? I didn't actually. But stupid is as stupid does. There is another big hole in the side of another USN warship. I'd say there's some stupid goin' on somewhere. The question the Navy needs to answer is, how high up the chain of command does it go? And can it be fixed?
Where to start? I am not the one claiming expertise, you are by saying the cyber attack possibility is ridicules. I asked what your qualifications are. Nothing so far armchair regurgitation and unreliable GPS. The pentagon is now looking into cyber attack as a possibility,funny no? The Navy will never admit a weakness so its mute anyway. Kind of like US missiles completely missing their targets in Syria and calling it a success. Stuxnet TYPE virus meant to be activated anytime, not the actual stuxnet virus. Every system has a backdoor. I suspect those ships were cyber targeted (internally or externally) so that what being seen on their electronic equipment was not what they were seeing outside. Too much reliance on electronic devices.
Your words; "Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity" ergo.. your opinion is stupidity is the cause, ergo.. stupid sailors. Your words not mine. I took the high ground and said 3 collisions in 3 months under seemingly similar circumstances APPEARS to be foul play especially after they were warned by China not to go near disputed territory. You offer nothing except inferring stupidity was the cause.
I understand what facetious is and also know what feces is,which is what your last post consisted of.
Once again, good luck with your space aliens and your unreliable GPS.
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Old 23-08-2017, 20:16   #84
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Re: I Don't Mean to Sound Uncharitable, But...

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...
"There's probably a thousand different ways how something like this can happen," retired Rear Adm. John Kirby, CNN military and diplomatic analyst, told CNN's "New Day."

ReallY? Because i can think of only one way; drive your boat directly into the path of a container ship, fishing vessel, or oil tanker.

Look at the grammar in the admiral's statement, and you may see a clue to what the real problem is. The guy couldn't have passed my seventh grade english class, and he's an admiral.
The man has two master's degrees and was the chief spokesman for the US Navy, and you want to call him stupid. Uh huh.
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Old 23-08-2017, 21:43   #85
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Re: I Don't Mean to Sound Uncharitable, But...

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Is that RT news ? They are Russian news based in Russia. Your link is the USA website. If the article is the one I think it is...it begins by citing an interview of :

Iranian military engineers conducted by the Christian Science Monitor.


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Old 23-08-2017, 21:50   #86
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Re: I Don't Mean to Sound Uncharitable, But...

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Is that RT news ? They are Russian news based in Russia. Your link is the USA website. If the article is the one I think it is...it begins by citing an interview of :

Iranian military engineers conducted by the Christian Science Monitor.


Honestly didnt read the entire article. However does anyone actually believe that the us gov would openly admit to issues of this nature through normal channels. (Plausible deniability) btdt)
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Old 23-08-2017, 22:32   #87
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Re: I Don't Mean to Sound Uncharitable, But...

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Honestly didnt read the entire article. However does anyone actually believe that the us gov would openly admit to issues of this nature through normal channels. (Plausible deniability) btdt)
...Oh...
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Old 24-08-2017, 08:41   #88
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Re: I Don't Mean to Sound Uncharitable, But...

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What experience do you have with hackers to defiantly say something it is ridiculous? Yeah thought so. Iranians took control of a U.S. drone and took hostages in the Persian Gulf after hacking the gps signals. Stuxtnet type virus on Chiniese made equipment aboard USN ships, impossible right? And thanks for calling US sailors stupid. Good luck with your Pleiadian friends.
I'm not much on someone hacking the Navy's electronics. But how easy would it be to hack the position of the freighters AIS position if the Navy is using that for navigation and the sail by wire?
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Old 24-08-2017, 11:21   #89
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Re: I Don't Mean to Sound Uncharitable, But...

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... But how easy would it be to hack the position of the freighters AIS position if the Navy is using that for navigation and the sail by wire?
How many radar devices will such a warship have, that can each identify and track incoming threats or targets? Four? A dozen maybe? How do you hack into all of those radars individually and confuse each one? Seems preposterous to me, when a simple miscalculation of less than 600' by a rookie navigator will give the same end result. Those guys aren't stupid, just lacking experience - a simple misjudgement that any one of us could make crossing a busy shipping lane. Fortunately for us we have only 40' or so to worry about while dodging traffic.
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Old 24-08-2017, 11:36   #90
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Re: I Don't Mean to Sound Uncharitable, But...

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How many radar devices will such a warship have, that can each identify and track incoming threats or targets? Four? A dozen maybe? How do you hack into all of those radars individually and confuse each one? Seems preposterous to me, when a simple miscalculation of less than 600' by a rookie navigator will give the same end result. Those guys aren't stupid, just lacking experience - a simple misjudgement that any one of us could make crossing a busy shipping lane. Fortunately for us we have only 40' or so to worry about while dodging traffic.
I believe you are right. Inexperience on the bridge? All we can do is second guess a tragic occurrence. I doubt we will ever know. Reconvene the Warren Commission.
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