Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 23-08-2017, 06:27   #61
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 8
Re: I Don't Mean to Sound Uncharitable, But...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cadence View Post
I believe it is an FFG and doubt the crew is only getting by with 3 or 4 hours sleep. At this point who knows. You need to feel for the families of the lost sailors. I'd bet on electronic failure and a young OD? JMHO
My son was (until recently) a crew member for the USS Carney DDG64, I believe his estimate of sleep times to be accurate.
__________________

__________________
McKenna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-08-2017, 11:36   #62
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Boston
Boat: In between boats
Posts: 54
Re: I Don't Mean to Sound Uncharitable, But...

From my armchair it looks like this: how in God's blue ocean can you not see, either visually or electronically, a 600' vessel bearing down on you? I don't buy the "stealth mode" theory wherein a Navy vessel would shut down all it's radar, AIS and other electronic visual aids while navigating the Straits of Malacca. What I think is more likely is that it was total dependence on those electronic instruments which led to the collisions of both the USS McCain and the USS Fitzgerald. I don't dismiss inexperience, inadequate leadership or overworked sailors but I just can't accept that veteran mariners would be so incompetent they would allow this to occur. For me the most telling factor is the lack of collision avoidance by both vessels. The container ship and the tanker both had sophisticated electronics. They didn't want to hit anything either. I think it is more likely that an electronics failure is to blame. Whether or not the failure was intentionally orchestrated is to be determined. We continue to see foreign attempts to hack into US military and civilian cyber networks. Why would you think they are not also attacking naval systems?
__________________

__________________
Nani Kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-08-2017, 12:30   #63
Registered User
 
Cadence's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: SC
Boat: None,build the one shown of glass, had many from 6' to 48'.
Posts: 5,998
Re: I Don't Mean to Sound Uncharitable, But...

Quote:
Originally Posted by alaskaflyfish View Post
Yes, thanks for making my point. The more maneuverable,more powerful (nation) ships were put into a position of weakness (egg on face) by blinding/confusing their actual positions thru cyber attack. Three times coincidence? The other position is that Navy military personnel are incompetent. I will take the higher ground and say no and analyze the trend. Sun Tzu tactic.
It is about time fly by or in these cases sail by wire has some on deck attention and override. The gov. probably fixed the hacking from the first two and are dealing with another Not to be critical teaching fly by wire may have been taught in lieu of when the hell to abandon it. The OD was probably a kid taught it was flawless. A sad situation for the kids trapped below.
__________________
Cadence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-08-2017, 12:40   #64
Registered User
 
alaskaflyfish's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: AK
Boat: Albin Vega 27
Posts: 113
Re: I Don't Mean to Sound Uncharitable, But...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nani Kai View Post
From my armchair it looks like this: how in God's blue ocean can you not see, either visually or electronically, a 600' vessel bearing down on you? I don't buy the "stealth mode" theory wherein a Navy vessel would shut down all it's radar, AIS and other electronic visual aids while navigating the Straits of Malacca. What I think is more likely is that it was total dependence on those electronic instruments which led to the collisions of both the USS McCain and the USS Fitzgerald. I don't dismiss inexperience, inadequate leadership or overworked sailors but I just can't accept that veteran mariners would be so incompetent they would allow this to occur. For me the most telling factor is the lack of collision avoidance by both vessels. The container ship and the tanker both had sophisticated electronics. They didn't want to hit anything either. I think it is more likely that an electronics failure is to blame. Whether or not the failure was intentionally orchestrated is to be determined. We continue to see foreign attempts to hack into US military and civilian cyber networks. Why would you think they are not also attacking naval systems?
I think this is the reason the military is once again teaching dead reckoning and celestial navigation instead of complete blind reliance on electronics.
__________________
Tim M
alaskaflyfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-08-2017, 12:40   #65
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Boston
Boat: In between boats
Posts: 54
Re: I Don't Mean to Sound Uncharitable, But...

I would appreciate input from US Naval veterans as to the protocol for command of a naval vessel at any given time. If the CO has retired to his cabin who is in charge of the vessel? I had always assumed that it would be the XO. Is it possible that a lower ranked officer (20 yr old OD as another poster noted) with a minimum of experience would have command at night in a narrow, heavily trafficked strait?
__________________
Nani Kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-08-2017, 13:14   #66
Registered User
 
alaskaflyfish's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: AK
Boat: Albin Vega 27
Posts: 113
Re: I Don't Mean to Sound Uncharitable, But...

This just breaking the news wire. The Navy now is examining the possibility of cyber attack. Never believe anything until officially denied. Military microprocessors made in China, who could have seen this coming?
__________________
Tim M
alaskaflyfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-08-2017, 13:34   #67
Registered User
 
Astrid's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Northern British Columbia, part of the time in Prince Rupert and part of the time on Moresby Island.
Boat: 50-ft steel Ketch
Posts: 1,885
Send a message via MSN to Astrid Send a message via Yahoo to Astrid
Re: I Don't Mean to Sound Uncharitable, But...

Also seems the 7th Fleet commander, Vice Admiral Aucoin has been dismissed by CinC Pacific Fleet due to lack of confidence in his ability to command.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...oin/592685001/
__________________
'Tis evening on the moorland free,The starlit wave is still: Home is the sailor from the sea, The hunter from the hill.
Astrid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-08-2017, 14:13   #68
Moderator
 
JPA Cate's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 10,337
Re: I Don't Mean to Sound Uncharitable, But...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nani Kai View Post
I would appreciate input from US Naval veterans as to the protocol for command of a naval vessel at any given time. If the CO has retired to his cabin who is in charge of the vessel? I had always assumed that it would be the XO. Is it possible that a lower ranked officer (20 yr old OD as another poster noted) with a minimum of experience would have command at night in a narrow, heavily trafficked strait?
Nani Kai,

There have been quite a few USN vets sharing their knowledge on the thread by Cormorant about the collision between the AC Crystal and the USS Fitzgerald. Also, there is more at US Destroyer Collision Again! begun by Delancey.

Ann
__________________
with Jim, aboard US s/v Insatiable II, in Oz, very long term cruisers

"Today's misfortune is tomorrow's adventure."
JPA Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-08-2017, 14:19   #69
Registered User
 
Cadence's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: SC
Boat: None,build the one shown of glass, had many from 6' to 48'.
Posts: 5,998
Re: I Don't Mean to Sound Uncharitable, But...

I would like to see a Master Chief on the bridge with an Ensign or a Lt. Someone not still wet behind the ears. I was as dumb as a rock in the early 20s. Probably dumber than a rock at 74 for even responding. :-)
__________________
Cadence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-08-2017, 14:36   #70
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43
Posts: 6,609
Re: I Don't Mean to Sound Uncharitable, But...

Quote:
Originally Posted by alaskaflyfish View Post
This just breaking the news wire. The Navy now is examining the possibility of cyber attack. Never believe anything until officially denied. Military microprocessors made in China, who could have seen this coming?
How do you "cyber attack" a mark one eyeball keeping a lookout in heavy traffic?
__________________
StuM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-08-2017, 14:53   #71
Registered User
 
Cadence's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: SC
Boat: None,build the one shown of glass, had many from 6' to 48'.
Posts: 5,998
Re: I Don't Mean to Sound Uncharitable, But...

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
How do you "cyber attack" a mark one eyeball keeping a lookout in heavy traffic?
That's the problem. It wasn't eyeballed. How much would it take to move a ship a little on AIS or GPS?
__________________
Cadence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-08-2017, 14:57   #72
Registered User
 
alaskaflyfish's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: AK
Boat: Albin Vega 27
Posts: 113
Re: I Don't Mean to Sound Uncharitable, But...

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
How do you "cyber attack" a mark one eyeball keeping a lookout in heavy traffic?
No one was looking till it was too late. Their eyes were on a hacked computer screen. Remember that little ship called the Titanic? By the time they actually saw something and relayed the command it was too late. MK 1 eyeball and all.
Let me set the scene:
-Lookout on McCain. "That ship looks awful close and heading our way"
4 layers of command later,
-Ensign below deck on computer "our systems show it will pass safely behind us."
-Lookout "That ship looks like its on a collision course."
4 layers of command later,
-Ensign below deck on computer- "Disregard lookout, our sensors show it will pass safely astern."
Lookout-"will somebody in command come out and see what I'm seeing."
BOOM goes the dynamite.

Clear enough for your MK1 eyeballs?
__________________
Tim M
alaskaflyfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-08-2017, 15:10   #73
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Out of Norfolk Va
Boat: Tartan 37
Posts: 421
Re: I Don't Mean to Sound Uncharitable, But...

As someone who worked ship control systems on subs for the last 30 years and worked in the Fly-by-Wire safety groups for the last two subs. I have a very hard time believing a US Navy FBW system was hacked. Now if you said, they were targeted. I might believe there's something to that. I think the crew does gets worked up coming into port "Channel Fever". They are also working hard to have things shipshape in order to hit the docks with liberty. Maybe they were too tired or distracted. I'm totally lost and feel for the families.

Also, I'm glad I'm out of the business if they require a design scrub of FBW systems.

We did a backfit, to installed AIS on subs years ago. I use to laugh in meetings with the Navy, "Why are you doing this, you know they'll never turn them on." You know what, I've past a bunch of subs and never seen one with AIS on.

Living in Norfolk we past Navy vessels entering and leaving the harbour all the time and they aren't as sharp as they were in the pass. I"m sorry if that offends anyone here, I do think we have some great people serving in the Navy.
__________________
puffcard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-08-2017, 15:26   #74
Moderator
 
JPA Cate's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 10,337
Re: I Don't Mean to Sound Uncharitable, But...

I don't think war ships need to transmit their AIS, but it'd be cool if they were looking. They need to be able to "see" others like themselves, the ones who aren't transmitting AIS, and who may have the coatings that confuse radar. They have fantastically good radar--way better than our old toys. In a dense traffic area, really, I think we are looking at one of those cascades of events types of tragedy.

Until the "collision again" thread, and El Pinguino's article and charts, I had not known of the "suction" problem. But it certainly could have been part of the picture.

Ann
__________________
with Jim, aboard US s/v Insatiable II, in Oz, very long term cruisers

"Today's misfortune is tomorrow's adventure."
JPA Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-08-2017, 16:26   #75
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 141
Re: I Don't Mean to Sound Uncharitable, But...

It's pointless to pontificate too specifically from this distance. And certainly I am no trained marine accident investigator. Except in my own mind, of course, where I pretty much know everything about everything.

I doubt we will ever really know. There will be so many fingers pointing in so many directions no one will likely ever get the story straight. And if they do, they sure aren’t going to tell us. And does anyone here see anyone on that bridge piping up and saying,” I’m sorry. I screwed up. I steered us right into the path of that 600 foot long ship. It was all my fault"

The Navy knows it has a problem, though. They took a day off to "study basic seamanship.” That seems a good thing for a US Navy Destroyer captain to know.

From USA Today:

The U.S. Navy dismissed Vice Adm. Joseph Aucoin as commander of the 7th Fleet on Wednesday… Adm. Scott Swift, commander of U.S. Pacific Fleet, dismissed Aucoin "due to a loss of confidence in his ability to command,”...

Here are links to both their career high points:

Commander, U.S. 7th Fleet, Vice Adm. Joseph P. Aucoin > Commander, U.S. 7th Fleet > Display

Admiral Scott H. Swift | Commander, U.S. Pacific Fleet

Both these guys are pilots. Excuse me. Naval Aviators. Both have thousands of hours of flight time and thousands of carrier landings in F-14’s. Both have years of experience commanding air groups. And flying desks in “staff” positions.
But I don’t see anything in their background that would get them a job as an oil tanker or container ship captain.
I think this is a perfect example of ineptness and incompetence spreading from the top down.
Forgive me if I’m being “uncharitable.” But I’m thinking these are careerists and ticket punchers. Not seamen. I think Adm Swift should go one better and dismiss himself, too.

And I just don’t buy the steering failure story at all. Hacked or not. It may have seemed like a steering failure. A bridge full of tired young sailors. Someone looks up from their computer screen and sees a huge ship bearing down on them. Everybody starts yelling. People yelling conflicting orders. The joy stick twister twisting and joy sticking as hard as possible. In the slow motion perception of crisis, it may have seemed like the ship wasn’t responding.
But a destroyer is not a video game, is it? It doesn’t respond instantly. Those pesky laws of physics get in the way. So when the video gamer slams the stick all the way over, and the ship doesn’t instantly leap out of the way: Steering failure. Obviously. What else could it be?

And hacking the steering and control programs? Pure conspiracy theorist science fiction. Where was this hacker? On the tanker? On the container ship? On the fishing boat? In an airplane? Maybe he was in a cloaked submarine. Or a space ship. And what was his plan? “Ill seize control of a destroyer and put a dent in it. That will EMBARRASS America to death!”
Are these hackers watching navy ships all over the world? Just waiting for that one opportune moment when a burst from their super secret hacker ray gun can cause one ship to bump into another?
Unless someone can clearly explain EXACTLY how, from where, and by who that could be done and show some evidence of it having been done, I think it ridiculous. I think i have about as much chance of bringing down the space station with my iPhone.

Oh, I know! The Pleiadians did it!

As someone else here said; Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity
__________________

__________________
dgz3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Liveaboard don't ask don't tell purepleaaure Liveaboard's Forum 56 12-01-2017 06:40
A couple of basic questions - we don't know what we don't know. JohnEasley Powered Boats 15 20-05-2016 05:21
But I Don't WANT to Go Up There ! BareFtGrl Construction, Maintenance & Refit 51 04-09-2011 20:21
This May Sound Crazy, but . . . kavasake Meets & Greets 5 18-07-2011 16:39
Don't Know Where to Start - But Would Love to Cruise Subguy Training, Licensing & Certification 22 13-03-2009 19:19



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:52.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.