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Old 13-01-2020, 23:25   #46
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Re: Help for a navigation noob please

Message for the OP - Intifada

The responses to your post have been quite amazing. There is a huge amount of information for you to digest from some who are obviously very knowledgeable. My question to you is, has your question been answered? ie have you received the information you seek? I'm located on the Australian east-coast if you want to chat. (I am also an RYA Ocean Yachtmaster with the experience and mileage to back it up.)
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Old 14-01-2020, 00:57   #47
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Re: Help for a navigation noob please

You could do a lot worse than buying these two books..
https://www.chartandmapshop.com.au/i...-cunliffe-2008
and
https://www.chartandmapshop.com.au/c...-cunliffe-2009
Going up the east coast and on to Indon you don't really need celestial.... little steps...

The first CMaps to reach the sailing public were indeed burglebrand. Nothing to do with not being copy protected . The first ones that came my way were on 'floppies' and came with a note asking you to send $50 to Ivan Ivanovich at some address in St Petersburg....which is where Cmap was having the digitisation of the world's charts done... Russian cartographers being ten for a rouble at the time....
I suspect that the only thing that turned up on Ivan's doorstep would have been a few heavies sent by management to give him a damn good thrashing.

Anyway....

At the same time Cmap and Navionics were locked in a battle with the world's hydrographic departments.. especially the Australians... accused of stealing stuff from them.. ie digitising charts without permission...

Let he who is without sin etc....

Cmap have long since given up on CM93.... it is of no value in their main market... commercial shipping... where things are very securely secured....

PS Buy, beg or borrow a few paper charts.....
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Old 14-01-2020, 09:50   #48
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Re: Help for a navigation noob please

It is a blow in the head for thinking paper charts are a requirement when NOAA stops producing and the coast guard stops requiring.....
https://www.maritime-executive.com/a...l-paper-charts
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Old 14-01-2020, 10:29   #49
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Re: Help for a navigation noob please

Quote:
Originally Posted by saildoc View Post
It is a blow in the head for thinking paper charts are a requirement when NOAA stops producing and the coast guard stops requiring.....
https://www.maritime-executive.com/a...l-paper-charts
At least us Brits have some sense
Solas Chapter V - Annex 3 - Nautical Charts and Publications

Charts for non commercial are not a requirement but if you understand an Admiralty chart and plot a course using a Pencil (I know a pencil oh my ) then when you go onto your 3000 dollar screen you can better understand it , like driving a car without reading all the signs and understanding fathoms or metres or even feet on a chart .
Many experienced sailors after doing charts do not need to use them as much but starting out there is no better place to truly understand the sea and how to navigate it than getting yourself some charts or do the RYA day skippers online , which will allow you to understand tidal ranges , tide times from major ports, how to navigate and take bearings , plot your course on your paper map, allow for drift and current and tide , ETA for your destination etc,
I appreciate many on here point there boat to the sunshine and look at there chart plotter continuously , but if you had plot a course and took into account the tidal stream and currents you can set you compass and auto pilot and set sail and switch the chart plotter off
I know it does your facebook and twitter on it , but let it go , switch it off you might actually see the sea.
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Old 14-01-2020, 11:00   #50
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Re: Help for a navigation noob please

Quote:
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It is a blow in the head for thinking paper charts are a requirement when NOAA stops producing and the coast guard stops requiring.....
https://www.maritime-executive.com/a...l-paper-charts
The changes at NOAA & USCG reflect the changing commercial situation. Commercial setups have redundant ECDIS systems with redundant power supplies and professional engineers to maintain all, usually on all metal vessels.

The recreational market is not big enough to support chart printing or it wouldn’t have gone away. Nor does it use ECDIS charting systems and most are owner maintained. And most recreational boats are non-metallic so there is little protection from lightning strikes inherent to the vessel, only what steps the user takes specifically.
The ubiquity of GPS and electronic charting makes it not unreasonable to forego paper charts. But the continuing vulnerabilities in the recreational market means it is also not unreasonable to continue carrying paper charts.

What this amounts to, saildoc, is that you seem to be saying that anyone is brain damaged who make a choice other than the one you would make.
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Old 14-01-2020, 11:13   #51
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Re: Help for a navigation noob please

I am not sure if learning to use sight reduction tables is useful for understanding navigation. Doing celestial navigation by hand is just an exercise of self importance. A phone app can do it much faster and easier. Some are concerned about electricity. Well, a calculator also needs batteries. If you use a modern phone just to obtain gps fixes 4x a day, it will likely last a month or so. You can also get a small solar panel to recharge your phone that will take less space than the celestial navigation tables. Then some will say but how about if gps stops working or the sun stops shining. I feel there are bigger issues to worry about.

The point here is that using electronic navigation is simple, easy, accurate and it opens up the sailing hobby to a much larger crowd. So, do not discourage noob’s who are probably a lot smarter than us from the sailing hobby by making them learn celestial navigation first. My suggestion to the OP would be, get Navionics on a phone or tablet and start using it. Plotting routes, looking at weather, comparing visual navigation to the picture you see on the screen. Once you have some experience, you will decide yourself that you need Radar next. Everything else is optional and nice to have

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Old 14-01-2020, 11:13   #52
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Re: Help for a navigation noob please

Quote:
Originally Posted by tarian View Post
Charts for non commercial are not a requirement but if you understand an Admiralty chart and plot a course using a Pencil (I know a pencil oh my ) then when you go onto your 3000 dollar screen you can better understand it , like driving a car without reading all the signs and understanding fathoms or metres or even feet on a chart .
Partially agree. The underlying concepts must be understood, but the means of teaching them can vary. Of course, if the chart plotter doesn't support such basic plotting functions, then there's a bigger problem. This is a shortcoming of the application, not the format.

Ages ago Joel Spolsky (software guy) had a post complaining about Java Schools and how it meant students were left ignorant of basic concepts like pointers and recursion, etc. etc. I think a similar thing is at risk here; if you get mixed up in electronic chart formats and chartplotters and never learn the underlying concepts you're at a significant disadvantage.
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Old 14-01-2020, 13:43   #53
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Re: Help for a navigation noob please

What this amounts to, saildoc, is that you seem to be saying that anyone is brain damaged who make a choice other than the one you would make.[/QUOTE]


No, I imply no judgement. Learned on paper and carry paper but nowadays only use it for planning and they are clearly better for teaching new crew or non techies the lay of the "land". I was just surprised, since we have all been taught that having paper charts and a copy of the rule of the road onboard was the rule for US sailors, then saw this article which seems to discount the value of paper. I enjoy the math myself, and the charts are works of art in my opinion.

Summary, you do you. I will not judge.
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Old 14-01-2020, 23:13   #54
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Re: Help for a navigation noob please

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pizzazz View Post
Some are concerned about electricity. Well, a calculator also needs batteries.

Actually, most calculators I own don't need batteries at all. And they take literally no time at all to "charge" from their own built-in solar panels.



And - believe it or not - some people actually enjoy doing celestial ... even with old fashioned tables.


As I have said before: it would be foolish not to rely primarily on GPS - and to have multiple, independent GPS units as backups. And one can certainly navigate safely without doing celestial. But what does it hurt to learn it and use it as yet another, completely independent source of position information? Or even just to pass the time?
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Old 15-01-2020, 16:36   #55
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Re: Help for a navigation noob please

Watch my video on safe navigation.
https://youtu.be/iTQxLhp45lg
The training organisations like to teach navigation the complicated way, but it’s much safer to keep it simple and reliable. I recommend you use a normal chart plotter, with charts installed, then have at least two tablets/phones with Navionics, as a backup.
Safe navigation requires accuracy and reliability. But more importantly it must be easy and convenient, the biggest cause of accidents is failure to navigate!
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Old 15-01-2020, 17:40   #56
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Re: Help for a navigation noob please

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMac View Post
Watch my video on safe navigation.
https://youtu.be/iTQxLhp45lg
The training organisations like to teach navigation the complicated way, but it’s much safer to keep it simple and reliable. I recommend you use a normal chart plotter, with charts installed, then have at least two tablets/phones with Navionics, as a backup.
Safe navigation requires accuracy and reliability. But more importantly it must be easy and convenient, the biggest cause of accidents is failure to navigate!
Good practical guidance. I would recommend this video to all new navigators (and why not old too). I very much agree with the two navigators approach, multiple devices approach, plotting your route for later use, using satellite and aerial photos etc.
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Old 15-01-2020, 17:41   #57
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Re: Help for a navigation noob please

I always wondered how the flat earth sailors navigate.
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Old 15-01-2020, 22:32   #58
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Re: Help for a navigation noob please

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMac View Post
Watch my video on safe navigation.
https://youtu.be/iTQxLhp45lg
The training organisations like to teach navigation the complicated way, but it’s much safer to keep it simple and reliable. I recommend you use a normal chart plotter, with charts installed, then have at least two tablets/phones with Navionics, as a backup.
Safe navigation requires accuracy and reliability. But more importantly it must be easy and convenient, the biggest cause of accidents is failure to navigate!
Rich, you make some excellent points, & I agree about simple, easy & convenient, as well as accurate & reliable. But you're in the Med, which is very well charted. Given that the OP is heading to Indonesia, you may not know that Navionics & CMap are neither accurate nor reliable out here. In 2015, a boat we were cruising with was lost on a reef in Indo because they believed their Navionics too much. And CMap is worse most of the time.

Safe navigation in SE Asia really requires satellite imagery, because Navionics & CMap are pretty hopeless once you get off the beaten track out here, with errors of 1nm & miserable detail much of the time. Satellite imagery can still be easy, but gets a bit more complicated. An iWhatsIt with Ovitel is pretty simple, but I still think a laptop is better. Most folks will want a laptop on board anyway, so adding OpenCPN, CM93 charts, & some KAPs & mbTiles for satellite imagery is free & relatively easy. And necessary, IMHO.

A laptop can save the price of a chart-plotter ($1500), chart chips ($300), & even an AIS display ($400) if you want, & it's the only way to see SAS Planet with its ArcGIS, Bing, GE, CMap, & Navionics images all in one place, so easy to switch between. And it's all free. Yes, computers can be more delicate than chart-plotters (although ours always last several years) but still, US$2200 can buy a pretty good laptop AND a backup.
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Old 15-01-2020, 23:26   #59
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Re: Help for a navigation noob please

Australia is pretty easy, if you are on the east coast and going north, just keep it on the left.

OpenCPN with CM93 charts are pretty good, I went from the Great Sandy Straits north around Cape York, across the top and down to Exmouth and back in 2011-2012 without running into anything. I used a dedicated 10" Asus computer connected to my autopilot with a Digitech USB to RS485/422 converter from Jaycar. Hint, if you want Windows 7 or 8 to be reliable don't have any other programs except OpenCPN installed on it.

If you want to start going up rivers and inland waterways you will need something like Navionics running on a MFD or tablet. I have found the purple suggested course to be excellent for this and am presently using it in the multitude of passages at the south end of Moreton Bay. I have also used it to go up the Mary and Fitzroy rivers and pass through the Great Sandy Straits.
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Old Yesterday, 04:15   #60
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Re: Help for a navigation noob please

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMac View Post
Watch my video on safe navigation.
https://youtu.be/iTQxLhp45lg
The training organisations like to teach navigation the complicated way,
This statement is at odds with the RYA the Royal Navy and the Merchant navy taught in colleges in the UK , all of which are renowned throughout the world as first class seamanship , but your video and yourself must be right and all them that have been doing it for 200 years wrong.
Each individual person will learn a new task a different way and there is no true right way but after many decades you would think that these organisations have got something right , but as I have found out on these forums peoples egos and opinions seem to get way ahead of sound data , good practice and hundreds of years to perfect something.
This kind of attitude seems always to stem from a certain part of the Globe ,
A chart plotter in a navigation aid , just like a gps and mobile phone are navigational aids up in the mountains , but yet we still in Scotland pull dead bodies and rescue people in winter and Summer who think that not having a Map and compass and knowing the basics can and will save your life.

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