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Old 30-10-2016, 15:48   #1
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Helm and steerage dilemmas!

Help! Im loosing my mind over a steering issue that is confounding me. I have a steel 39' cutter rig with hydraulic steering. She weighs around 15 tons and constantly wanders to port when under sail or power. I thought it was the Wagner helm pump so i rebuilt it and replaced the seals. Also replaced all the hoses and fittings. I havent touched the cylinder that pushes the rudder. After i did all that i took her out for sea test only to discover she was still pulling to port! I observed the rudder stock/cylinder pump when the boat was doing about 3 knots, it was centered and pointing down the midline of the boat and NOT moving, yet the boat would continue to pull to port. Which required constant corection of the helm to starboard. I thought for sure the cylinder rod would be slipping out but no. So im stumped! Any advise would be greatly appreciated!
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Old 30-10-2016, 16:11   #2
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Re: Helm and steerage dilemmas!

Ummm, is the hull symmetric?
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Old 30-10-2016, 16:23   #3
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pirate Re: Helm and steerage dilemmas!

were you under power or sail..??
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Old 30-10-2016, 16:26   #4
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Re: Helm and steerage dilemmas!

It sounds like you need to recenter your wheel. Your hull/keel may or may not be symmetrical.

How many degrees to starboard do you need to hold the wheel to steer a straight line?
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Old 30-10-2016, 21:25   #5
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Re: Helm and steerage dilemmas!

The op says he has to constantly turn the wheel to counteract the drift to port. Sounds like a hydraulic problem, not an off center wheel, but what do I know lol?
He also says the boat does this under both sail and power.
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Old 30-10-2016, 21:44   #6
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Re: Helm and steerage dilemmas!

Quote:
Originally Posted by FSMike View Post
The op says he has to constantly turn the wheel to counteract the drift to port. Sounds like a hydraulic problem, not an off center wheel, but what do I know lol?
He also says the boat does this under both sail and power.
" Which required constant corection of the helm to starboard."

may mean he has to constantly turn the wheel or it may mean he has to constantly hold the wheel "off centre".

To the OP. Have you actually been under water and looked at the rudder when the wheel is centered?
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Old 30-10-2016, 22:52   #7
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Re: Helm and steerage dilemmas!

If you constantly need to hold stbd helm, under sail and power, you have something underwater which is driving the hull to port. Regardless of what it is, a solution is to fit a trim tab to the aft edge of your rudder. You can make it from a piece of metal, thin enough to bend, attached to the aft end of the rudder. Install it slightly angled to port. It will deflect the rudder to stbd. Sail the boat and adjust the tab to achieve a neutral helm. This is common practice on aircraft and it works very well on boats also.
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Old 30-10-2016, 23:37   #8
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Re: Helm and steerage dilemmas!

Does the cylinder constantly extend or retract as you constantly turn the wheel? If, so then the quadrant (or tiller arm) may be loose on the rudder post. Typically this part is clamped to the rudder post. It probably has a key way and key stock to lock it to the shaft. Maybe the key stock has fallen out or broken somehow.
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Old 31-10-2016, 09:29   #9
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Re: Helm and steerage dilemmas!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Friendlyfolkes View Post
Help! Im loosing my mind over a steering issue that is confounding me. I have a steel 39' cutter rig with hydraulic steering. She weighs around 15 tons and constantly wanders to port when under sail or power. I thought it was the Wagner helm pump so i rebuilt it and replaced the seals. Also replaced all the hoses and fittings. I havent touched the cylinder that pushes the rudder. After i did all that i took her out for sea test only to discover she was still pulling to port! I observed the rudder stock/cylinder pump when the boat was doing about 3 knots, it was centered and pointing down the midline of the boat and NOT moving, yet the boat would continue to pull to port. Which required constant corection of the helm to starboard. I thought for sure the cylinder rod would be slipping out but no. So im stumped! Any advise would be greatly appreciated!
Hi Friendly,

Has this boat always exhibited this behavior, or is this something new?

If it has always been this way, it sounds like something may not be symmetrical in the hull/keel/rudder skeg/ etc. In this case, the previously mentioned trim tab may be your simplest bet at correcting it. [No boat or airplane is perfectly balanced in my experience; my boat requires a degree or two correction under power but not sail...]

If it hasn't always required this steering correction, when you correct at the helm, does the steering correction hold steady? [i.e., you hold the wheel at a constant adjustment to maintain a straight course...] Or do you have to keep turning the wheel in small increments? [e.g., the hydraulics are drifting- which I suspect was your original premise given the rebuilt hydraulic system you mentioned...You mentioned watching the rudder and cylinder and that they were steady. I'm asking about the helm and the hydraulics before the cylinder....]

If the hydraulics are drifting, you aren't finished overhauling the system...

If they hold steady, experiment with a trim tab... which may still be an adjustment trade-off between sailing and powering... [i.e., the trim tab setting will likely be different for sail vs. power, so you would need to find the happy medium ans still do some corrective steering...]

Also, you can just decide to live with it [assuming the hydraulic steering is functioning correctly and not drifting...]

I hope you find the right balanced approach to best suit your needs.

Cheers! Bill
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Old 31-10-2016, 09:59   #10
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Re: Helm and steerage dilemmas!

Another "lets play 20 questions" thread.
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Old 31-10-2016, 11:25   #11
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Re: Helm and steerage dilemmas!

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
" Which required constant corection of the helm to starboard."

may mean he has to constantly turn the wheel or it may mean he has to constantly hold the wheel "off centre".

To the OP. Have you actually been under water and looked at the rudder when the wheel is centered?
Many thanks for the reply, Yes I had the boat hauled out for recently and everything looked centered. The problem occurs under sail and power.The rudder stock is easily viewed as its right under my companionway steps, so I have observed that the rudder doesnt move yet the boat will curve off to port. Im also installing an autopilot and worry about the power consumption if its constantly need to correct my heading. Thanks again for your input.
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Old 31-10-2016, 11:32   #12
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Re: Helm and steerage dilemmas!

Is the boat in trim? Not listing?
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Old 31-10-2016, 11:34   #13
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Re: Helm and steerage dilemmas!

Thanks Bill, lots of good advice. I know that it seems impossible that the boat would turn if the rudder was holding steady. When testing, I would pick a point to head for and once the wheel was corrected and the boat heading in a straight line, with the rudder pointing in a centered manner, after 10 seconds her would slowly start rounding to port. I didnt observe any movement in the stock. The boat is symetrical btw.
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Old 31-10-2016, 11:42   #14
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Re: Helm and steerage dilemmas!

Many thanks to everyone for your advice. Its my first inquiry here, Lots of good ideas. Im going to do another test tomorrow to be try to deduce what exactly is going on, I'll bring a friend to assist watching the rudder and wheel and the piston.
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Old 31-10-2016, 11:44   #15
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Re: Helm and steerage dilemmas!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zach View Post
Is the boat in trim? Not listing?
Yes Zach she is in trim and not listing.
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