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Old 31-12-2017, 17:14   #46
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Re: GPS hacking is here

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
Jamming and spoofing are completely different.
Jamming is easy, it’s child’s play, all you need is to know the frequency or even close to it and just transmit noise is all.
Spoofing is completely different and way more sophisticated, and while it’s possible, it’s not likely done by much less than a Government with a lot of resources, especially Military GPS. . . . .
Or maybe all’s it take to spoof is a couple of grad students and their professor from UTx Austin 4yr ago. No state actors there.

https://news.utexas.edu/2013/07/29/u...n-yacht-at-sea
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Old 31-12-2017, 17:33   #47
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Re: GPS hacking is here

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Or maybe all’s it take to spoof is a couple of grad students and their professor from UTx Austin 4yr ago. No state actors there.

https://news.utexas.edu/2013/07/29/u...n-yacht-at-sea


I bet they were very close, and that was a civilian GPS.
Big ships and 80 million dollar yachts would I think have an INU or two, the INU could be used to check the GPS. Yes you could spoof a GPS, but not the INU.
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Old 31-12-2017, 18:35   #48
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Re: GPS hacking is here

Yeah they were close.

On the other hand there’s propably only 1 INS unit and several GPSs aboard. If 3 GPSs report 1 location and the INS another which is going to be believed by a civilian crew?
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Old 31-12-2017, 19:45   #49
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GPS hacking is here

Usually when you have an INU coupled to a GPS and you have a disagreement, you get an alarm and you have to determine who is right, realign the INU or whatever.
The ones I have used are coupled, the GPS dampens or augments if you will the INU.
Only point is, if your that expensive a vessel and or if there is even a concern of navigation error, then you have a back up system and you go to the back up if you suspect an error.
I have ferried single engine light aircraft several times across the Gulf to deliver to Central and South America. Once a few hours out of FT Pierce on my way to Costa Rica, my Garmin 396 was showing that I was right on course, several minutes later, I was still perfectly in course. Being a little wary I made a small turn, that was not reflected on the GPS. When I tried changing screens it wouldn’t. It wasn’t being spoofed, however it was locked up, nothing would work, you couldn’t even turn it off. I had to take unplug it and take the battery out of it to make it restart. Needless to say I took out my backup 296 and used it.
That 396 has worked perfectly for years since then, and has never locked up again.
I was mentored by a very good older Test Pilot named Ralph Kimberlin. Ralph has a saying, it’s that he has never met an electron that he trusts.
With any electronic device, Autopilot for instance, don’t trust the thing. I Dive with a Shearwater Predator computer, I love their warning.Click image for larger version

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Old 31-12-2017, 19:55   #50
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Re: GPS hacking is here

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The long and short of it is I believe the RQ-170 doesn’t use GPS but rather a digital map and inertial Nav, which is I believe very similar to a Cruise missile.
However, I’d bet they jammed the data link or spoofed it, but that is just a wild guess
The RQ-170 is perhaps 15 year old technology. We are so far beyond that for C4ISR that when Iran "hacked" that drone, US resources said "so what". The RQ is loud, visible, and dependent. It's a throw away technology at this point.

Only the least important resources are subject to GPS hacking. The real threat is in the capability of countries like NK to take direct remote control of systems, such as vessels. The people driving the boats think they are in control but they are not actually driving the boats. The hacks are so sophisticated that the crew driving the boat never knows that the they were never in control of the vessel. The ultimate hack is a hack that no one knew ever occured.

The Russians (or whoever is responsible) actually showing some demonstrative evidence that ships were showing the wrong GPS location is sloppy work and is quite a bad piece of work.
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Old 31-12-2017, 20:14   #51
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Re: GPS hacking is here

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
Usually when you have an INU coupled to a GPS and you have a disagreement, you get an alarm and you have to determine who is right, realign the INU or whatever.
The ones I have used are coupled, the GPS dampens or augments if you will the INU.
Only point is, if your that expensive a vessel and or if there is even a concern of navigation error, then you have a back up system and you go to the back up if you suspect an error. . . .
Ok, $80M yacht. Alarm comes on in the middle of the Med indicating INS and GPS disagree. The 2 backup GPSs agree with the primary and contradict the INS. There ain’t no LORAN or DECCA anymore to compare. What’s a civilian crew going to believe, 3 GPSs or 1 INS?

If the spoofer is aboard the vessel being spoofed then having a fluxgate compass in the package to reflect course changes would be a fairly straightforward embellishment. Speed changes would be harder to mimic but would not be impossible.
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Old 31-12-2017, 21:10   #52
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Re: GPS hacking is here

On an $80M yacht you just anchor and party til the GPS is working again.
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Old 08-01-2018, 08:05   #53
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Re: GPS hacking is here

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Military GPS units are spoof proof.
All systems have defects. Security systems have security defects. Show me a spoof proof GPS, and I'll show you some WMD in Iraq.
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Old 08-01-2018, 08:11   #54
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Re: GPS hacking is here

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A Military GPS uses a completely different frequency, the civilian GPS uses the C code of the satellites, a military GPS uses the P code.
They are different data streams on the same frequency. Originally the civilian data was deliberately degraded using a "feature" called selective availability that introduced errors of 100 feet or more, with the amount of degradation adjustable by the military with some ability to have better accuracy in some regions than others. This practice was officially discontinued some time ago.

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I believe the GPS system was conceived and funded as a Military system, but of course was very early on allowed for civilian use, possibly so that the US system would be the standard before other systems were launched is my guess.
So the US taxpayer has funded navigation for the world for years.
The system was intended for joint military and civilian use from its inception.
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Old 08-01-2018, 08:25   #55
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Re: GPS hacking is here

Offshore, the only thing I would worry about much is a loss of the GPS constellation.

Spoofing? We'll see more of it, in small areas, with various motives, just as we now see cell phone jamming and spoofing systems in small areas.

I would guess that most of the spoofing systems will be used by people who are trying to evade detection of their movements. Examples would be the ankle bracelets used by various courts and corrections systems to monitor certain individuals, and vehicle and vessel monitoring systems designed to detect inappropriate operation or theft.

Over time, critical navigation near densely populated areas may become risky since the chance being affected by someone's ankle bracelet spoofer increases.

We could also see motivated individuals trying to complicate navigation in an area, if they are trying to foil access to their favorite fishing spot or something. People do dumb stuff where fishing is involved.
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Old 08-01-2018, 08:29   #56
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Re: GPS hacking is here

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Ok, $80M yacht. Alarm comes on in the middle of the Med indicating INS and GPS disagree. The 2 backup GPSs agree with the primary and contradict the INS. There ain’t no LORAN or DECCA anymore to compare. What’s a civilian crew going to believe, 3 GPSs or 1 INS?

If the spoofer is aboard the vessel being spoofed then having a fluxgate compass in the package to reflect course changes would be a fairly straightforward embellishment. Speed changes would be harder to mimic but would not be impossible.
Check radar to see where you are. A small difference in location is not likely to cause any problem if so far away from land that you can't see any land or anything else that would help you with your location.
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Old 08-01-2018, 10:34   #57
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Re: GPS hacking is here

"All systems have defects."
That was not the point, or the title of the thread.
The point is that GPS spoofing and jamming has gone from "possible" to NORMAL and documented as taking place hundreds of time per year, all over the world, for various purposes.
So instead of saying "There may be tigers in the park"
the point is "Many tigers have been actually found in the park."

Possibly small tigers, possibly vegetarian tigers, but the tigers have been found in the park. Commonly.

Whether that matters to sailors at all, is up to each user to decide for themselves.

The military leaves it to others to decide whether this is a threat or not. Until and unless it interferes with active military operations, at which point they launch an antiradiation missle (ARM) which simply flies into the rogue transmitter and leaves a smoking crater. And someone has to justify both the expense and the collateral damage, so no one is in a hurry to use those for civilian inconveniences or script kiddies. Much cleaner to let the local PD go swat it.

For commercial shipping? Probably of little consequence, as the GPS position would conflict with radar or other data, which someone should take note of. For aviation? Private pilots "cheating" and using GPS could be fooled, but they seem to routinely run out of gas anyway. Commercial aviation knows that they'll have to wait for the new systems, that the current ones have their limits.

Take it where you will, you may not be affected at all. Personally I'm used to doubting GPS, especially when it tells me "continue driving east" and I'm looking at the sunset. (Could be a flaw in the nav system rather than a GPS error.) Differences on the water? Might be harder to spot.
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Old 09-01-2018, 02:54   #58
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Re: GPS hacking is here

To hellosailor I say chapeau for putting it this way,

"So instead of saying "There may be tigers in the park"
the point is "Many tigers have been actually found in the park."
Wth as topping.
"Possibly small tigers, possibly vegetarian tigers, but the tigers have been found in the park. Commonly."


Grtz

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Btw; ever thought of becoming a writer.
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Old 09-01-2018, 03:24   #59
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Re: GPS hacking is here

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Originally Posted by Jammer View Post
They are different data streams on the same frequency. Originally the civilian data was deliberately degraded using a "feature" called selective availability that introduced errors of 100 feet or more, with the amount of degradation adjustable by the military with some ability to have better accuracy in some regions than others. This practice was officially discontinued some time ago.



The system was intended for joint military and civilian use from its inception.
There are now 5 frequencies being transmitted by the satellites. Originally there were two (Li & L2) but later gen satellites also use L3, L4 & L5.


From Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPS_signals

GPS Frequencies
Band Frequency
(MHz) Phase Original usage Modernized usage
L1 1575.42
(10.23×154) In-phase (I) Encrypted precision P(Y) code
Quadrature-
phase (Q) Coarse/acquisition (C/A) code C/A, L1 Civilian (L1C), and
Military (M) code
L2 1227.60
(10.23×120) In-phase (I) Encrypted precision P(Y) code
Quadrature-
phase (Q) Unmodulated carrier L2 Civilian (L2C) code and
Military (M) code
L3 1381.05
(10.23×135) Used by Nuclear Detonation (NUDET)
Detection System Payload (NDS);
signals nuclear detonations/
high-energy infrared events.
Used to enforce nuclear test
ban treaties.
L4 1379.913
(10.23×1214/9) N/A Being studied for additional
ionospheric correction[43]:607
L5 1176.45
(10.23×115) In-phase (I) N/A Safety-of-Life (SoL) Data signal
Quadrature-
phase (Q) Safety-of-Life (SoL) Pilot signal
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Old 09-01-2018, 11:03   #60
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Re: GPS hacking is here

You are too generous, Rob.
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