Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 07-08-2013, 16:24   #1
Senior Cruiser
 
jackdale's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 5,048
Images: 1
GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

Quote:
The National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency misplaced a reef in the Philippine Islands by eight miles on its digital nautical charts, which helped cause the USS Guardian to run aground Jan. 17, destroying the ship.

NGA director Letitia Long told Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Jonathan Greenert that the digital nautical chart display of the Tubbataha Reef in the Sulu Sea was wrong due to erroneous commercial satellite imagery. Long made the assertion in letters obtained by the watchdog website Government Attic.

That error was compounded by “exclusive reliance” of the USS Guardian crew on GPS as a “single source of navigation.” The crew did not pay heed to lighthouses on the reef, according to a 160-page post-wreck investigation report by Adm. Cecil D. Haney, commander of U.S. Pacific Fleet.
How a Misplaced Reef on a Digital Chart Helped Destroy a Navy Minesweeper - Nextgov.com

The Canadian Coast Guard has this on their chartplotters.

__________________

__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Ocean Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
ASA 201, 203,204, 205, 206, 214
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
jackdale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2013, 16:31   #2
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: GPS as the sole means of navigation.

Every chartplotter I have ever used displays an initial splash screen that states it is not to be used as a sole source of navigation.

Mark
__________________

__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2013, 17:07   #3
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: sydney, australia
Boat: 38 roberts ketch
Posts: 1,021
Images: 3
Re: GPS as the sole means of navigation.

I've been thinking about this a bit lately - the last couple of trips up the coast i did, i was a little lazy - i didnt do ANY navigating - i was even embarrassed when i had to do a sched update and could only give my position as 'off the 3rd big headland down from barrenjoey' cos i couldnt be bothered getting the gps out. As a matter of habit i had the chart out and had a look at it now and then. Thing is - even at night i 'navigate' by knowing where i am, knowing where i'm going and using my eyes and occasionally my binoculars (which i inherited from my dad and were used by him sailing all around the pacific in the 60,70s). I wonder how many of you who are, like me, of the vintage that didnt habitually use electronics, really rely on all the aids that much? Even getting off the coast i tend to be a bit relaxed because - well if you cant see the coast here you know its somewhere to the west, and the only things you're going to bump into are lord howe or middleton...or nz if you really fell asleep.
__________________
charliehows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2013, 18:01   #4
Registered User

Join Date: May 2013
Location: Mystic
Boat: Sabre 38 mkII
Posts: 261
Re: GPS as the sole means of navigation.

This.

and iirc most say dont use as primary navigation tool

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Every chartplotter I have ever used displays an initial splash screen that states it is not to be used as a sole source of navigation.

Mark
__________________
Mystic38 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2013, 18:28   #5
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Probably in an anchorage or a boatyard..
Boat: Ebbtide 33' steel cutter
Posts: 3,540
Shouldn't the lesson in this case be 'don't trust charts' instead of 'don't trust GPS' ?
__________________
conachair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2013, 20:06   #6
Senior Cruiser
 
jackdale's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 5,048
Images: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by conachair View Post
Shouldn't the lesson in this case be 'don't trust charts' instead of 'don't trust GPS' ?
Use you eyes!
__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Ocean Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
ASA 201, 203,204, 205, 206, 214
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
jackdale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2013, 20:38   #7
Senior Cruiser
 
rebel heart's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,190
Images: 3
Re: GPS as the sole means of navigation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Every chartplotter I have ever used displays an initial splash screen that states it is not to be used as a sole source of navigation.

Mark
And I'm sure everyone reads the End User License Agreements when they install software.

Turn off the GPS satellites and see how many boats with chartplotters could get anywhere.
__________________
rebel heart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2013, 20:52   #8
Senior Cruiser
 
atoll's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: gettin naughty on the beach in cornwall
Boat: 63 custom alloy sloop,macwester26,prout snowgoose 37 elite catamaran!
Posts: 9,312
Images: 75
Re: GPS as the sole means of navigation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel heart View Post
And I'm sure everyone reads the End User License Agreements when they install software.

Turn off the GPS satellites and see how many boats with chartplotters could get anywhere.
what a great day that would be for delivery skippers who can navigate in real time.....bring it on ....in days past you earnt the right to be called a captain/navigator by how succesfull your landfalls were
__________________
my catamaran building project updates http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...36#post2502136
atoll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2013, 05:06   #9
Don't ask if you can't handle it
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: On the boat somewhere
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 12,319
Re: GPS as the sole means of navigation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by conachair View Post
Shouldn't the lesson in this case be 'don't trust charts' instead of 'don't trust GPS' ?
I would say the answer is YES! I bet their GPS told them exactly where they were, but that doesn't help you if a reef is recorded in the wrong position.

That only excuses some of the error in this case as it sounds there is a lighthouse that they should have been questioning the position on.
__________________
jobless, houseless, clueless, living on a boat and cruising around somewhere
sailorboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2013, 05:16   #10
Moderator
 
noelex 77's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Living on dirt waiting for our new yacht to be built.
Boat: Half built Bestevaer.
Posts: 10,619
Re: GPS as the sole means of navigation.

Are the paper chart of the area wrong as well?
__________________
noelex 77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2013, 05:16   #11
Armchair Bucketeer
 
David_Old_Jersey's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,013
Images: 4
Re: GPS as the sole means of navigation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by charliehows View Post
I've been thinking about this a bit lately - the last couple of trips up the coast i did, i was a little lazy - i didnt do ANY navigating - i was even embarrassed when i had to do a sched update and could only give my position as 'off the 3rd big headland down from barrenjoey' cos i couldnt be bothered getting the gps out. As a matter of habit i had the chart out and had a look at it now and then. Thing is - even at night i 'navigate' by knowing where i am, knowing where i'm going and using my eyes and occasionally my binoculars (which i inherited from my dad and were used by him sailing all around the pacific in the 60,70s).
Not sure if you were being ironic - but to me all that sounds like Navigating . Of course if you had also got a pencil out it would have been "proper" navigating .

If "you" know where you are not then IMO no great need to know exactly where you are (let alone to the last inch). In ye olden days (pre GPS!), less precise locations actually fitted in very well with prudent navigation (if you can't navigate to the last inch, then likely won't hit something which is 6 inches to the left of where it is meant to be. Or the GPS thinks it is, because Capt Cook had a WAG on a Friday , using a leadline).
David_Old_Jersey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2013, 05:22   #12
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Switzerland
Boat: So many boats to choose from. Would prefer something that is not an AWB, and that is beachable...
Posts: 1,242
Re: GPS as the sole means of navigation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
Is the paper chart of the area wrong as well?
Could well be the case. Paper and Digital maps are produced based on the same sources after all.

It is of course also possible that however integrated the original data in the product this particular vessel used made a mistake.
__________________
K_V_B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2013, 05:23   #13
Registered User

Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 143
Re: GPS as the sole means of navigation.

What was the bridge crew doing? Was anybody looking were they were going? Did the depth gauge not show the depth shallowing out? There was a lighthouse on the reef, so surely there was other buoyage as well?

I might reprimand the map-maker, but I would certainly beach the bridge crew.

[edit: I just noticed the link above the picture - apparently lookouts saw the lighthouse and the crew ignored their reports.]
__________________
beverley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2013, 05:35   #14
Armchair Bucketeer
 
David_Old_Jersey's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,013
Images: 4
Re: GPS as the sole means of navigation.

Likely reason was either that someone changed the scale of the chart on the Chartplotter (where is here & japan?!) so the reef "disappeared" or that different people were using the Chartplotter (some people just can't stop fiddling with buttons) which means that no one had an easy visual way of spotting when something was odd or different (with a quick glance) - because the chart was always different (in size, orientation - or screen, oh look it has how many inches it is to the North pole!).
David_Old_Jersey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2013, 06:10   #15
Moderator
 
Hudson Force's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Lived aboard & cruised for 45 years,- now on a chair in my walk-in closet.
Boat: Morgan OI 413 1973 - Aythya
Posts: 7,894
Images: 1
Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

I do much of that "Charliehows" navigation. I think that is legitimate form of navigation,- you look out at the coastline, see the familiar features and rely on your local knowledge. At other times, with less familiarity, I might use the GPS in addition. If I'm in a new place I would use more navigation tools. 'depends on the situation.
__________________

__________________
Take care and joy, Aythya crew
Hudson Force is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
gps, navigation

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
OpenCPN 3.2.0 Released bdbcat OpenCPN 81 14-04-2013 10:06
GPS Navigation Advice Robes Navigation 12 12-12-2012 17:01
Poll-Blue water. Is a Sextant Necessary? noelex 77 Navigation 219 25-11-2012 16:28
cheap NMEA gps antenna? manitu Navigation 9 25-10-2012 16:18
iPad Route Navigation Cotemar Navigation 3 05-05-2011 07:25



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 15:56.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.