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Old 11-08-2013, 20:35   #121
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I get it...how many others will?????
We had a massive thread on this a few months ago, so I think by now most CFers get it.

Not really applicable, because if you are on a passage long enough to need to work out a CTS, you for sure won't be using nav mode.
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Old 12-08-2013, 04:41   #122
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

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We had a massive thread on this a few months ago, so I think by now most CFers get it.

Not really applicable, because if you are on a passage long enough to need to work out a CTS, you for sure won't be using nav mode.
Actually then I don't get it....kinda like not going into harbors at night being unseamanlike...as a commercial captain..I'm expected to do it all the time.

Using an autopilot in Nav mode is just second nature to me and using it on short legs or one of 10,000 miles is no big deal....you can make it one....but you don't have to.

So I guess I don't get it.... because I remember a few threads on autopilots that made me just shake my head in disbelief of some of the comments.
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Old 12-08-2013, 04:50   #123
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

Ive never slaved an AP to a route, I always use the "drop a waypoint ahead" principle, which is more compatible with paper charts. It also means I dont blindly allow the AP control the boat.

In conditions, where there is significant tidal currents, I compute CTS and drop those waypoints ahead and then point the AP at the WP. Hence I never use "track" mode. This method also lets me determine if my assumptions on tidal set and drift are/were correct.

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Old 12-08-2013, 04:58   #124
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

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Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Actually then I don't get it....kinda like not going into harbors at night being unseamanlike...as a commercial captain..I'm expected to do it all the time.

Using an autopilot in Nav mode is just second nature to me and using it on short legs or one of 10,000 miles is no big deal....you can make it one....but you don't have to.

So I guess I don't get it.... because I remember a few threads on autopilots that made me just shake my head in disbelief of some of the comments.

So here we go again.

Of course you're excellent at what you do. We all recognize that.

BUT YOU AREN'T THE MINIMUM STANDARD FOR EVERYONE ELSE. You don't "get" that everyone can do what you do with the confidence you do?

I'm sorry, but WHY THE HELL NOT???

WHY don't you see that your experience and knowledge is NECESSARILY way above most recreational boaters? And WHY do you think everyone else out there will have the knowledge, experience and instincts you have developed over so many years of doing it professionally?

WHY would you NOT want people to recognize your limits.

I'm sorry, but that's what I don't get.

One of my daughters got their drivers license at 16, and one at 17. That doesn't mean I immediately let them drive across the country. They had to pass MY test to drive out of the drive way, and believe me, mine was a lot harder than the state's. But even then they had to have a lot more experience to drive their cars to college (one 8 hours away, one 10 hours away). They didn't like it. They hollered that it wasn't fair. They hollered that "all their friends got to."

Meanwhile I had a neighbor ask me if my daughter could pick up her daughter from summer camp -- one week after she got her license. The mother thought i was complimenting her. i told her no way was this girl driving with anyone else in the car for six months. It was bad enough that my daughter's life was at risk; no one else was going along for the drive.

Since then research has proven me right and some states don't allow new drivers to have anyone with them for the first six months. They need ALL their attention on driving.

My point?

Experience counts.

When someone like you complains that others won't do what you are very comfortable with, you are encouraging people to ignore their instincts and their very knowledge about themselves and their skills.

Be proud of your skills. You should be. But don't expect it to be a minimum standard. You may not realize it, but you put yourself down when you think everyone should know what you do. You're at the top of the food chain on this.
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Old 12-08-2013, 05:09   #125
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
So here we go again.

Of course you're excellent at what you do. We all recognize that.

BUT YOU AREN'T THE MINIMUM STANDARD FOR EVERYONE ELSE. You don't "get" that everyone can do what you do with the confidence you do?

I'm sorry, but WHY THE HELL NOT???

WHY don't you see that your experience and knowledge is NECESSARILY way above most recreational boaters? And WHY do you think everyone else out there will have the knowledge, experience and instincts you have developed over so many years of doing it professionally?

WHY would you NOT want people to recognize your limits.

I'm sorry, but that's what I don't get.

One of my daughters got their drivers license at 16, and one at 17. That doesn't mean I immediately let them drive across the country. They had to pass MY test to drive out of the drive way, and believe me, mine was a lot harder than the state's. But even then they had to have a lot more experience to drive their cars to college (one 8 hours away, one 10 hours away). They didn't like it. They hollered that it wasn't fair. They hollered that "all their friends got to."

Meanwhile I had a neighbor ask me if my daughter could pick up her daughter from summer camp -- one week after she got her license. The mother thought i was complimenting her. i told her no way was this girl driving with anyone else in the car for six months. It was bad enough that my daughter's life was at risk; no one else was going along for the drive.

Since then research has proven me right and some states don't allow new drivers to have anyone with them for the first six months. They need ALL their attention on driving.

My point?

Experience counts.

When someone like you complains that others won't do what you are very comfortable with, you are encouraging people to ignore their instincts and their very knowledge about themselves and their skills.

Be proud of your skills. You should be. But don't expect it to be a minimum standard. You may not realize it, but you put yourself down when you think everyone should know what you do. You're at the top of the food chain on this.
Well..I guess hundreds of new Sea Ray owners that I delivered their new boats to were all geniuses...because most of them had it figured out in the first day...maybe you just need someone with a bit of experience to explain JUST HOW SIMPLE IT IS to you.

And by the way...I DID use the NAV feature in the Dismal Swamp Canal coming through this spring...that is EXACTLY where the NAV mode works better than AUTO.

Wow....I can see why people DON"T use it...but making it complicated is just a misunderstanding of how it could be a lifesaver in an emergency.

Live to your own limitations...but if I were a boater and had an autopilot on it...I sure as heck would figure out how to use one of it's most basic features...because my life or someone else's could depend on it someday.
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Old 12-08-2013, 05:10   #126
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pirate Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

And... some of us actively 'Choose' not to use it... just like choosing not to go into strange/new harbours at night...
And I still say... GPS as the sole means of safe navigation is impossible....
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Old 12-08-2013, 05:20   #127
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

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Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Well..I guess hundreds of new Sea Ray owners that I delivered their new boats to were all geniuses...because most of them had it figured out in the first day...maybe you just need someone with a bit of experience to explain JUST HOW SIMPLE IT IS to you.

And by the way...I DID use the NAV feature in the Dismal Swamp Canal coming through this spring...that is EXACTLY where the NAV mode works better than AUTO.

Wow....I can see why people DON"T use it...but making it complicated is just a misunderstanding of how it could be a lifesaver in an emergency.

Live to your own limitations...but if I were a boater and had an autopilot on it...I sure as heck would figure out how to use one of it's most basic features...because my life or someone else's could depend on it someday.

You missed my point entirely. I wasn't talking about myself, but thanks for the vote of confidence. I was trying to say nicely that your posts tend to be a little insulting; you always expect people to know what you know.

There is a STRONG feeling in this forum to not rely on electronics, and there are places I wouldn't because they can cut out. I used the Manatee River in the dark as an example.

You probably have redundancies on your ships that recreational boaters just won't have. There's just no need to sneer.
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Old 12-08-2013, 05:24   #128
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
And... some of us actively 'Choose' not to use it... just like choosing not to go into strange/new harbours at night...
And I still say... GPS as the sole means of safe navigation is impossible....
Hey don't get me wrong...I fully understand peoples want and desires out on the water...well maybe not all wants and desires...

And I agree with the GPS statement....

Just like I understand all levels of abilities out there...I'm not a tanker captain...I work with small boaters and beginners every day and help and guide them while doing my job..

When bored I often practice the "old school" ways...like following contours with the depth sunder to find the inlet.

But when people say something "different" is unseamanlike or dangerous or foolish...I have to toss the BS flag cause it's just not so. Don't do it if you don't want to, like to or have the confidence to do it.

To me there's a big difference between knowing how to do something and actually doing it. I don't wakeup every morning and prep my boat like i'm going transatlantic when I'm only going down the ICW 25 miles.

So sail or power anyway you want to (and I know you will)...I'm assuming except on deliveries or commercial work...we are just out there for fun....but I highly recommend that anyone that is aboard a boat with an autopilot to be able to at least put a waypoint in and let it track to it...it might be important in a critical situation someday.
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Old 12-08-2013, 05:25   #129
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
And... some of us actively 'Choose' not to use it... just like choosing not to go into strange/new harbours at night...
And I still say... GPS as the sole means of safe navigation is impossible....

I agree with you. GPS as the sole means of safe navigation is not "impossible," because it will work most of the time. It is, however, reckless.

It's the kind of hubris that killed three of those four football players off the coast of Florida. Because they had survived being foolish before, they didn't KNOW how reckless they were being. The odds finally caught up with them. Think they were using celestial navigation or even dead reckoning to get out to where they were? Of course not. They had a GPS with a point saved to the fishing spot they always went to.

What they didn't have was the faintest ability to pay attention to weather reports. At my sailing club we had all known not to go out that day -- for three days.

Now, if you're piloting a big freighter with built-in redundancies, it probably IS safe to navigate into a channel using electronics. But for us for whom one bad connection can mean that all our electronics go dead, it may not be in our best interest to try to navigate a tricky channel at night when it would be perfectly safe to wait until daylight.

I know bunches of sailors who have gone into the Dry Tortugas, but none who do it at night, and believe me, they all have chart plotters.
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Old 12-08-2013, 05:31   #130
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

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Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Hey don't get me wrong...I fully understand peoples want and desires out on the water...well maybe not all wants and desires...

And I agree with the GPS statement....

Just like I understand all levels of abilities out there...I'm not a tanker captain...I work with small boaters and beginners every day and help and guide them while doing my job..

When bored I often practice the "old school" ways...like following contours with the depth sunder to find the inlet.

But when people say something "different" is unseamanlike or dangerous or foolish...I have to toss the BS flag cause it's just not so. Don't do it if you don't want to, like to or have the confidence to do it.

To me there's a big difference between knowing how to do something and actually doing it. I don't wakeup every morning and prep my boat like i'm going transatlantic when I'm only going down the ICW 25 miles.

So sail or power anyway you want to (and I know you will)...I'm assuming except on deliveries or commercial work...we are just out there for fun....but I highly recommend that anyone that is aboard a boat with an autopilot to be able to at least put a waypoint in and let it track to it...it might be important in a critical situation someday.

Well, then, you're saying that if someone has an autopilot, they should know how to use it?

OK ... and yes, I completely agree, it can be a tremendous asset in a pinch.

What the more conservative among us are saying is that we wouldn't use it, or just a chart plotter, to navigate a tricky, unknown channel in the dark. If it goes out, then you're suddenly up to your neck in alligators.

Even with the chart plotter, I still have someone on the bow with a spot light, even in a known channel. Anyone can make a mistake, and that's just one more backup system.
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Old 12-08-2013, 05:37   #131
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

Quote:
Actually then I don't get it....kinda like not going into harbors at night being unseamanlike...as a commercial captain..I'm expected to do it all the time.

Using an autopilot in Nav mode is just second nature to me and using it on short legs or one of 10,000 miles is no big deal....you can make it one....but you don't have to.

So I guess I don't get it.... because I remember a few threads on autopilots that made me just shake my head in disbelief of some of the comments.
Your a commercial captain of a merchant ship, your experience does NOT translate to a small sail driven vessel . Im an experienced sail "captain" , i know next to nothing to about conning a big ship.


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Old 12-08-2013, 05:38   #132
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Wink Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
You missed my point entirely. I wasn't talking about myself, but thanks for the vote of confidence. I was trying to say nicely that your posts tend to be a little insulting; you always expect people to know what you know.

There is a STRONG feeling in this forum to not rely on electronics, and there are places I wouldn't because they can cut out. I used the Manatee River in the dark as an example.

You probably have redundancies on your ships that recreational boaters just won't have. There's just no need to sneer.
Missed your point?????

Hardly think so.

All these forum quips tend to be misleading because no matter how well intended the reply...theres almost always something left untyped.

Good examples are entering an unfamiliar harbor at night is unseamanlike or as Boatman says sole use of GPS is impossible.

Of course the blanket statement "entering an unfamiliar harbor at night is unseamanlike " is total BS unless you frame it with...if you don't have to...but then the term unseamanlike is better substituted with risk management.

While I can't speak his exact thoughts...the same goes for sole use of GPS. While I can leave my dock, steam 100 miles though difficult waters, and return to it within 3 feet or less much of the time while completely under the hood (as they say in instrument flight training)...to do so for anything but a life and death situation would be a folly. Nobody in their right mind is going to NEVER do an eyeball on some landmark to erify everything is "on course".

So I only usually sneer when someone continues to argue a point where once the "unwritten part of the posts" becomes a little more clear to everyone...even the novices...yet they just keep on going. Much like the gun threads..only I see it in most threads that go more than a couple pages...usually by then...most topics except actually building your own autopilot have covered the thread title topic pretty well.
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Old 12-08-2013, 05:42   #133
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

I think there is some confusion. using an AP is not navigation, An AP is a self steering device. I use my AP almost all the time as it lets me con the boat without the " tryanny of the wheel".

I did a transatlantic last year, where we only hand steered for 4 hours in total out of 21 days. The AP did the rest.


Slaving an AP to a route plotted on a GPS derived position displayed on a electronic chart is another thing altogether.

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Old 12-08-2013, 05:43   #134
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

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Your a commercial captain of a merchant ship, your experience does NOT translate to a small sail driven vessel . Im an experienced sail "captain" , i know next to nothing to about conning a big ship.


Dave
Well..I've got experience in both...especially on the 30" sailboat I used to live on and actively cruise before GPS and Loran. My "usual" command is 26 feet long and a power vessel but often with a tow making about 5-7 knots. Single handling and towing at 6 knots reminds me a lot of when I was actively sailing.....slow and with your hands full...

Still has nothing to do with my basic premise...
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Old 12-08-2013, 05:46   #135
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I think there is some confusion. using an AP is not navigation, An AP is a self steering device. I use my AP almost all the time as it lets me con the boat without the " tryanny of the wheel".

I did a transatlantic last year, where we only hand steered for 4 hours in total out of 21 days. The AP did the rest.


Slaving an AP to a route plotted on a GPS derived position displayed on a electronic chart is another thing altogether.

dave
Yes...but it's not hard, complicated or dangerous with just a few things to keep in mind.

As I said to Boatman...if you don't like it don't use it....but it's certainly within the grasp of beginning chartplotter users as long as they know it's basic dangers and limitations.
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