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Old 16-08-2013, 14:47   #196
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

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I just feel that self-regulation in UK recreational boating works very well, in that anyone can see that as a sailor I'm not really competent to drive a 500hp mobo
as a confirmed sailor, who regularly drives a friends 606hp twin screw mobo, I can comfortably say that most cruising sailors, i.e. those that do motor and not just the club racers can easily drive and navigate a twin screw 500hp power boat, Its not difficult,

The issues are common to all boaters, knowledge of COLREGS, the perils of navigation and position fixing, understand weather, basic slow speed manoeuvring , how to anchor properly , how to tie up a boat and use springs etc.

These are all common, the ICC really care if you can't trim or manage that 10,000sq foot spinnaker etc. Thats not what its about,

SO a person with big RIB experience can handle a mobo, a person with good dinghy experience can sail a bigger yacht ( to the standard of the ICC) , hence the reason for the cross equivalances. Its not perfect but its reasonable compromise.

IN other countries there is far less choice and often ICCs are given out on the back of slightly dubious national certs.

perhaps the cross equivalencies should be abolished and ICCs only be given for your boat by direct assessment

An important point by the way , The ICC is only valid for your flag boat , i.e. your personal boat, It does not mean you are competent in another nations boat. which makes the charter thing even more weird.

Dave
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Old 16-08-2013, 15:00   #197
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

Righteo Dave, point taken. I didn't know the ICC is not technically valid in other nations. As you say, a weird situation... sort of makes a mockery out of 'international'. Clearly, both national authorities and private companies are using it in a way that was not intended. I remain sceptical that it has any real relevance in the UK - I've never needed mine and most people probably don't even bother applying for one - but if some people think it's useful than who am I to argue.
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Old 16-08-2013, 15:18   #198
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

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Originally Posted by europaflyer View Post
Righteo Dave, point taken. I didn't know the ICC is not technically valid in other nations. As you say, a weird situation... sort of makes a mockery out of 'international'. Clearly, both national authorities and private companies are using it in a way that was not intended. I remain sceptical that it has any real relevance in the UK - I've never needed mine and most people probably don't even bother applying for one - but if some people think it's useful than who am I to argue.
yes even though there is no compulsory certification, and no likelihood of one, it still has very high participation in training courses.

and yes it has no relevance to the UK, but my 'gedanken' was what would we use if you had to introduce a compulsory world recognised competency cert

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Old 16-08-2013, 17:07   #199
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

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I would be interested in seeing a sample exam -- can you provide a link?

Cheers,

Jim
As requested

http://www.irishsailingassociation.c...0the%20ICC.pdf
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Old 16-08-2013, 17:36   #200
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pirate Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

The ICC did not exist when I decided that I wanted to venture further afield.. and as I did not want to do the dreary plod through competent crew etc I contacted an RYA school at Rockley Sands, Poole and arranged for an examiner to take my International Helmsmans Certificate.
He turned up where I worked at Lilliput Yacht Station and was a bit surprised to find I was doing it solo... but decided to humour me... "its your money" he said.. so off we went.
Basically it involved navigating around Poole harbour on various tacks, MOB, picking up a mooring under motor and sail.. coming alongside and anchor up and down.. also under sail and motor... all the while he was firing questions on lights/shapes and COLREG's
To my surprise.. and his.. I passed with flying colours..
I am certified for motor and sail up to 24metres or 80GT..
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Old 16-08-2013, 18:39   #201
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

[QUOTE=goboatingnow;131397
Like I said , what in the name would you have people do. Yachtmaster tickets , 100 ton masters license, space ship driver, skyscraper builders license.

Don't run down things you don't know a lot about , please
dave[/QUOTE]

I have a Skyscraper Builders licence,

Its called a,

Licence to Perform High Risk Work,

It involved a Practical and Theory examination, Written, At my cost.

With out it, You dont work on a construction site, Multi story buildings,
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Old 16-08-2013, 18:55   #202
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
Thanks mate.

Interesting set of requirements, and none of which should cause any competent cruiser much difficulty, if the examiner is reasonable.

However, I doubt if a big percentage of the folks one encounters on the water would indeed pass the exam. I include in this all the saturday fishermen in their tinnies, water skiers, PWC operators, folks in a variety of rent-a-boats and newbie sailors. These are obviously not "cruising sailors", but constitute the population who contribute the most to the fatality lists and who drive the authorities to contemplate restrictive laws.

Incidentally, I see nothing in the exam which relates to electronic navigation methods. Do you think that since it is the prevalent means of navigation some attention should focus on one's ability to use and understand the techniques?

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 17-08-2013, 01:47   #203
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

Agree. And it is unfortunate that many boaters have no knowledge of Colregs or pretty much anything else. Seems especially true for power boaters and jetski operators




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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Thanks mate.

Interesting set of requirements, and none of which should cause any competent cruiser much difficulty, if the examiner is reasonable.

However, I doubt if a big percentage of the folks one encounters on the water would indeed pass the exam. I include in this all the saturday fishermen in their tinnies, water skiers, PWC operators, folks in a variety of rent-a-boats and newbie sailors. These are obviously not "cruising sailors", but constitute the population who contribute the most to the fatality lists and who drive the authorities to contemplate restrictive laws.

Incidentally, I see nothing in the exam which relates to electronic navigation methods. Do you think that since it is the prevalent means of navigation some attention should focus on one's ability to use and understand the techniques?

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 17-08-2013, 09:59   #204
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Thanks mate.

Interesting set of requirements, and none of which should cause any competent cruiser much difficulty, if the examiner is reasonable.

However, I doubt if a big percentage of the folks one encounters on the water would indeed pass the exam. I include in this all the saturday fishermen in their tinnies, water skiers, PWC operators, folks in a variety of rent-a-boats and newbie sailors. These are obviously not "cruising sailors", but constitute the population who contribute the most to the fatality lists and who drive the authorities to contemplate restrictive laws.

Incidentally, I see nothing in the exam which relates to electronic navigation methods. Do you think that since it is the prevalent means of navigation some attention should focus on one's ability to use and understand the techniques?

Cheers,

Jim
You are welcome.

As an IYT instructor I am accredited to administer the ICC exams here in Canada. I have only done one; it was not that onerous for me or the candidate. He was also writing CYA exams at the same time. That took more time and effort.

As to electronic navigation, I am a somewhat old school and think that folks should have experience in paper navigation before using electronic navigation. That might explain why I prefer raster, rather than vector, charts. I also like to look at a proper sized paper chart when passage planning. I might change my mind when I see 36" chartplotter.
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Old 17-08-2013, 10:07   #205
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
You are welcome.

As an IYT instructor I am accredited to administer the ICC exams here in Canada. I have only done one; it was not that onerous for me or the candidate. He was also writing CYA exams at the same time. That took more time and effort.

As to electronic navigation, I am a somewhat old school and think that folks should have experience in paper navigation before using electronic navigation. That might explain why I prefer raster, rather than vector, charts. I also like to look at a proper sized paper chart when passage planning. I might chnage my mind when I see 36" chartplotter.
I certainly agree that familiarity with traditional navigation methods is necessary, and that paper charts should be in every nav station... teaching these techniques is great.

However, the reality is that the vast majority of boaters these days use some form of electronic based navigation in everyday practice. So, IMO ascertaining their ability to correctly use these techniques is a reasonable part of determining their competency.

BTW, I got a momentary chuckle out of your reference to "CYA exams". To many of us non-Canucks, CYA means "cover your ass", and I wasn't aware of any exams on that subject!

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 17-08-2013, 10:18   #206
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

I think it pretty clear that electronics is the future and paper charts are the past...........

.....and I don't see that paper charts are essential to teach someone the fundamentals behind what the Gizmo is doing (and IMO that is essential) - but I can't think of a better way .........but likely someone will come up with a Gizmo that is better to teach that! (my suspicion is that it will be glasses head up display based ).
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Old 17-08-2013, 11:26   #207
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I think it pretty clear that electronics is the future and paper charts are the past...........

.....and I don't see that paper charts are essential to teach someone the fundamentals behind what the Gizmo is doing (and IMO that is essential) - but I can't think of a better way .........but likely someone will come up with a Gizmo that is better to teach that! (my suspicion is that it will be glasses head up display based ).
You will never get me to agree to that and I'm a tech head

Dave
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Old 17-08-2013, 11:44   #208
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

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You will never get me to agree to that and I'm a tech head

Dave
But the great thing about the future is that large chunks of it are unknown and full of exciting possibilities limited only by imagination .

Of course large chunks are also full of the despairingly predictable .

We will probably both be wrong ........but until then I am firmly in the paper is best as a learning tool for navigation (not of course simply the bit about course plotting).
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Old 17-08-2013, 12:45   #209
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In my mind though, the ICC is a silly little bit of paper with purely legal relevance.
I agree with that. It's just a piece of paper that allows me to placate the harbor master when chartering in Croatia... A handy piece of paper, which is why I got one as soon as my government started to hand them out.
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Old 17-08-2013, 13:04   #210
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

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. I also like to look at a proper sized paper chart when passage planning. I might change my mind when I see 36" chartplotter.
Imaging an electronic nav station hinged top! With a clear scratch-proof surface you could draw on and use compasses on!

That would please me greatly. I'd still keep paper charts, but I would love to have a "glass nav station" of that sort.
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