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Old 16-08-2013, 06:17   #181
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

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Originally Posted by RaymondR View Post
Is the AIS system just thee thin edge of the wedge and will it lead to mandatory AIS connected to mandatory autopilots and a collision avoidance scheme like commercial aviation has?
As you note the collision avoidance systems are required for commercial aircraft, not recreational/private aircraft. They are probably not going to become a requirement, but that doesn't mean they are not a good idea. By the way the collision avoidance systems are not tied to the autopilot as far as I know, they simply tell the pilots which way to go to avoid a collision. Regulations require the pilots to follow the directions of the instrument.

In Aviation things happen much faster than on a boat. Another airplane can go from invisible to colliding with you in a matter of seconds and if you don't happen to be looking in that direction when it appears it can really suck to be you. I know many privater pilots who have installed these systems voluntarily, because in an airplane there is no such thing as a minor collision.
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Old 16-08-2013, 08:17   #182
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

Dave, thanks for posting those ICC requirements, for I had never seen them.

If they were rigorously required for operating a pleasure vessel, the waters that I am familiar with would be emptied of recreational boats. I would venture a WAG that less than one percent of boat operators in the areas that I am familiar with would qualify.

Would increase safety, decrease boating activity and cause a revolution to be mounted.

I wonder how many CF posters could qualify?

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 16-08-2013, 09:48   #183
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

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Originally Posted by nigel1 View Post
Not really sure how this incident would be categorised, maybe something along the lines of ignoring the real world while head is buried in a computer screen.
As a sailor who goes to sea to stare at the sea and not a screen, your story disturbs me.

I'm not averse to any nav aid. I'm averse to using only one, particularly if it means you don't look out the window enough. Or pay attention. Or use your bloody brain.

If the so-called pros are as terrible and negligent as your pilot, I'm going to have to assume commercial traffic is to be treated like I assume is most recreational traffic: as if it is an out-of-control hazard under power but not command. The trouble is, you can't give every vessel a prudent distance.
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Old 16-08-2013, 10:05   #184
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Dave, thanks for posting those ICC requirements, for I had never seen them.

If they were rigorously required for operating a pleasure vessel, the waters that I am familiar with would be emptied of recreational boats. I would venture a WAG that less than one percent of boat operators in the areas that I am familiar with would qualify.

Would increase safety, decrease boating activity and cause a revolution to be mounted.

I wonder how many CF posters could qualify?

Cheers,

Jim
They are widely attempted and passed in many EU countries. Its not that difficult to show such competence
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Old 16-08-2013, 11:09   #185
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
They are widely attempted and passed in many EU countries. Its not that difficult to show such competence
I have never sailed in EU waters so have no knowledge of the competence shown by recreational boaters in that area.

I don't know if the folks who post here on CF represent the average of expertise, but we have had so many long and contentious arguments about many of these subjects that I must doubt that "such competence" is always present amongst us. In fact, posters here often display misinformed opinions on subjects such as anchoring, colregs, radio procedures, navigation and pilotage and other subjects referred to in those ICC requirements. You yourself have pointed out many of those faulty ideas. Perhaps the folks in the EU are better educated, or perhaps the exams are not too challenging... I dunno.

I would be interested in seeing a sample exam -- can you provide a link?

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 16-08-2013, 11:21   #186
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
I have never sailed in EU waters so have no knowledge of the competence shown by recreational boaters in that area.

I don't know if the folks who post here on CF represent the average of expertise, but we have had so many long and contentious arguments about many of these subjects that I must doubt that "such competence" is always present amongst us. In fact, posters here often display misinformed opinions on subjects such as anchoring, colregs, radio procedures, navigation and pilotage and other subjects referred to in those ICC requirements. You yourself have pointed out many of those faulty ideas. Perhaps the folks in the EU are better educated, or perhaps the exams are not too challenging... I dunno.

I would be interested in seeing a sample exam -- can you provide a link?

Cheers,

Jim
Gotta say...after 6 years teaching USCG Captain's licensing courses...I'll bet 50% of them that passed barely knew what they were talking about before the tests and in a month 90% of the entire class forgot most of it. Many never went on to commercial service..but they still held that same piece of paper.

So much like many CF posters that could qualify for some arbitrary test...by the time they get around to sailing or posting here...well ....like you posted...you geally got to wonder every time you visit here.
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Old 16-08-2013, 11:32   #187
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

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I would be interested in seeing a sample exam -- can you provide a link?
I recently passed the RYA Day Skipper exam, which involved 5 days at sea and managing all aspects of boat handling. This entitles me to apply for an ICC.

The instructor said I could either do the RYA theory course or, if I preferred, I could buy this book Day Skipper for Sail and Power: Amazon.co.uk: Alison Noice: Books and simply learn it from cover to cover since everything I needed to know was in it. He warned me that he would be asking things in the book during my five days and he would expect me to have the knowledge in that book and be able to act on it. Having completed the theory exam was not a requirement but I personally could not have passed without the theory - there would have been too much too learn too quickly.

So, I was given no guidance by the instructor in passage planning, set and drift, calculating tides, rafting courtesies, basic engine management and inspection, sail setting, victualling and colregs. He expected to me to know it and to demonstrate that I knew it.

I was expected to produce passage plans and explain them, act correctly around other vessels, assign crew duties and inspect the boat and engine and take the boat in and out of marinas and secure her safely with warps, fenders and springs.

The link I gave has a "look inside" feature so you can get some idea from scanning through the book. I hope that helps.
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Old 16-08-2013, 11:38   #188
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

It would seem that even 'professionals' do not always pay attention:

13 dead, hundreds more rescued after Filipino ferry collides with cargo ship - World News
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Old 16-08-2013, 11:42   #189
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Dave, thanks for posting those ICC requirements, for I had never seen them.

If they were rigorously required for operating a pleasure vessel, the waters that I am familiar with would be emptied of recreational boats. I would venture a WAG that less than one percent of boat operators in the areas that I am familiar with would qualify.

Would increase safety, decrease boating activity and cause a revolution to be mounted.

I wonder how many CF posters could qualify?

Cheers,

Jim
Dave's post makes the ICC sound like a pretty onerous qualification. IMHO it isn't. In the UK, it's a lesser qualification than the RYA Day Skipper, which itself is the most basic skippering qualification offered by the RYA. The Day Skipper (sail) ticket qualifies the holder automatically for an ICC for sailing vessels up to 24m (79') LOA and power up to 10m (33') LOA, and that's without ever having set foot on a powerboat. In other words, our novice sailor with only a couple of days experience as skipper and little more as crew can hop straight from the 30'er they learned on in to, say, a 79' 50 tonne monster, or a powerboat packing several hundred horsepower. Worse than that, an ICC can be awarded if you hold both a dinghy instructor ticket and a level 2 powerboat ticket. That means potentially hopping from an Oppie, in to a little RIB, in to a maxi yacht. Seriously!

The fairest thing you could say is that it does at least guarantee that the holder has spent some time on a boat and perhaps has demonstrated theory knowledge relevant to their situation. In my mind though, the ICC is a silly little bit of paper with purely legal relevance.

Explanation of requirements here.
http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollection...ICC%20Form.pdf
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Old 16-08-2013, 12:39   #190
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

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Originally Posted by europaflyer View Post
Dave's post makes the ICC sound like a pretty onerous qualification. IMHO it isn't. In the UK, it's a lesser qualification than the RYA Day Skipper, which itself is the most basic skippering qualification offered by the RYA. The Day Skipper (sail) ticket qualifies the holder automatically for an ICC for sailing vessels up to 24m (79') LOA and power up to 10m (33') LOA, and that's without ever having set foot on a powerboat. In other words, our novice sailor with only a couple of days experience as skipper and little more as crew can hop straight from the 30'er they learned on in to, say, a 79' 50 tonne monster, or a powerboat packing several hundred horsepower. Worse than that, an ICC can be awarded if you hold both a dinghy instructor ticket and a level 2 powerboat ticket. That means potentially hopping from an Oppie, in to a little RIB, in to a maxi yacht. Seriously!

The fairest thing you could say is that it does at least guarantee that the holder has spent some time on a boat and perhaps has demonstrated theory knowledge relevant to their situation. In my mind though, the ICC is a silly little bit of paper with purely legal relevance.

Explanation of requirements here.
http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollection...ICC%20Form.pdf
much misinformation in that post

RYA Day skipper is a 5 day on boat assessment, its a quite stringent ticket and very valuable for it.

ICC is a 2 day direct assessment,

Despite what you say ICC power unto 10m ( i.e. ribs) are awarded to holders of Power boat level 2, which is quite a useful qualification in itself.

Fuerthermore despite what you say a dinghy instructor ( which is quite an advanced course) and the holder of Power boat level 2 , will get sail and icc ( under 10m)

Fundementally you miss the point, IN the UK you can hop from dingy to RIB to maxi yacht to 1000hp twin screw mopo without ANY cert. The point of the ICC is to establish a minimum competency MINIMUM. but its minimum standards are reasonably good for a basic competency cert.


If you want getter certs , get a RYA YM.


Quote:
The fairest thing you could say is that it does at least guarantee that the holder has spent some time on a boat and perhaps has demonstrated theory knowledge relevant to their situation. In my mind though, the ICC is a silly little bit of paper with purely legal relevance.
what do you want, that everyone does a mandatory RYA Yachtsmaster. Really this is a very silly thing you said. Its demonstrates you have a basic proficiency and can demonstrate that both on paper and practically.

Its a great "little" piece of paper and it has in effect no legal relevance.

Like I said , what in the name would you have people do. Yachtmaster tickets , 100 ton masters license, space ship driver, skyscraper builders license.

Don't run down things you don't know a lot about , please
dave
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Old 16-08-2013, 13:20   #191
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
much misinformation in that post

RYA Day skipper is a 5 day on boat assessment, its a quite stringent ticket and very valuable for it.

ICC is a 2 day direct assessment,

Despite what you say ICC power unto 10m ( i.e. ribs) are awarded to holders of Power boat level 2, which is quite a useful qualification in itself.

Fuerthermore despite what you say a dinghy instructor ( which is quite an advanced course) and the holder of Power boat level 2 , will get sail and icc ( under 10m)

Fundementally you miss the point, IN the UK you can hop from dingy to RIB to maxi yacht to 1000hp twin screw mopo without ANY cert. The point of the ICC is to establish a minimum competency MINIMUM. but its minimum standards are reasonably good for a basic competency cert.


If you want getter certs , get a RYA YM.


what do you want, that everyone does a mandatory RYA Yachtsmaster. Really this is a very silly thing you said. Its demonstrates you have a basic proficiency and can demonstrate that both on paper and practically.

Its a great "little" piece of paper and it has in effect no legal relevance.

Like I said , what in the name would you have people do. Yachtmaster tickets , 100 ton masters license, space ship driver, skyscraper builders license.

Don't run down things you don't know a lot about , please
dave
Always nice to be put in my place

My points that you can;

a) get an ICC saying you are 'competent' to drive powerboats up to 10m without ever having been on one;

b) ditto for sail boats up to 24m with only minimal experience on vessels with a fraction of the displacement;

c) get an ICC with experience only on dinghies and RIBs

still stand.

My post was not an attempt to contradict your earlier detailed post on the requirements of the ICC, which was entirely correct. I was just trying to point out that the ICC is not quite the killer qualification that one of the above posters seemed to think it was.

As for Day Skipper, being able to get the ticket having spent only 5 days total on a yacht, acting as skipper for only part of that, and having potentially less than 100 miles experience, makes it a little less than 'stringent'. That's not attacking its usefulness, I think it's a well conceived qualification, but it has to be viewed in context.

It is true that no qualifications are required for most recreational boating activities in the UK. It is also true that this seems to have no negative impact on safety, and don't see how a ticket certifying relative novices as 'competent' to skipper vessels in which they are plainly anything but compenent adds to safety. Doubtless it serves some insurance purpose for charter companies in the med, but most charterers in the UK do the sensible thing and make their own judgement of the skippers experience. Certainly, if someone was planning to charter a 75'er and I had to make the judgement call, whether or not they possessed an ICC would not be a factor, because in that case it would not even guarantee the minimum experience it is supposed to.

Just another opinion.

Over to you Dave
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Old 16-08-2013, 13:47   #192
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

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My post was not an attempt to contradict your earlier detailed post on the requirements of the ICC, which was entirely correct. I was just trying to point out that the ICC is not quite the killer qualification that one of the above posters seemed to think it was.
I realise that, but the ICC is a useful basis , where one to accept my premise that its time to introduce mandatory competency based certification. The ICC has some global reach.

The idea is a minimum standard, i.e. that for powerboats your have Level 2 equivalency ( folks this is using the RYA system, other countries some none or different systems)

for sailing you have at least day skipper equivalency

for charter , the ICC was picked , previously because its a minimum qualification, again , what do you want. in the UK the charter industry is tiny compared to the med. So in practice many countries , especially Croatia want some sort of minimum proof

Yes that still doesnt address the idiot in 1000hp 50 foot Targa. BUT at least , if it was compulsory, the idiot might have gleaned at least a little knowledge, just a little, whereas today he knows nothing.

The UK has a good safety record, ( as actually so most EU countries) , firstly we do not have the preponderance of sports boat users that exist in the US, most are sail users, the waters tend to encourage some level of knowledge and the rescue services are on a par to none.

The ICC is like a drivers licence , a drivers license doesnt make you a good driver, not even a competent one, but it ensures a minimum level of ability. you can't drive a car without one, why not the same for boats. Training is good.

dave
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Old 16-08-2013, 14:05   #193
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

I agree with most of the above. I also realise that, especially for foreign chartering where having a meaningful discussion about the skippers experience might be difficult because of language differences, the idea of a certificate guaranteeing a minimum standard of competence has its usefulness.

My complaint with the ICC is how it is implemented. There is no reason to certify me, as a sailor, as competent to drive powerboats. I would not drive a 33' powerboat without prior instruction because it's just not sensible, even though my ICC says I'm competent. Similarly, there is no reason to certify me as competent to sail a 79' boat, which could easily have 5 times the displacement of the biggest boat I've sailed and probably 10 times that of the boats most instruction is undertaken on. It would be a better idea to just issue the ICC for sailing vessels up to maybe 50', unless the applicant has experience on vessels above 50'. Similarly, only issue for powerboats if the applicant has, well, been on one. With those changes, I think it would be a much more meaningful certificate.
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Old 16-08-2013, 14:15   #194
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

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My complaint with the ICC is how it is implemented. There is no reason to certify me, as a sailor, as competent to drive powerboats. I would not drive a 33' powerboat without prior instruction because it's just not sensible, even though my ICC says I'm competent. Similarly, there is no reason to certify me as competent to sail a 79' boat, which could easily have 5 times the displacement of the biggest boat I've sailed and probably 10 times that of the boats most instruction is undertaken on. It would be a better idea to just issue the ICC for sailing vessels up to maybe 50', unless the applicant has experience on vessels above 50'. Similarly, only issue for powerboats if the applicant has, well, been on one. With those changes, it would I feel be a much more meaningful certificate.
The categories of ICC were set by the resolution , i.e. power, sail, inland

If you do the direct assessment , i.e. the ICC exam, you are typically examined on the type of boat that you use. i.e. that 70 foot targa.

The resolution allowed countries to set equivalences , mainly to allow grandfathering in and to not discourage existing certificates. IN the UK , motorboats do not have a set of specific courses , RIBS do ( Pb1 Pb2, Advanced PB) Dinghys do ( level 1-4) . for larger boats both sail and power RYA has versions of Day skipper, Coastal skipper and YM.

Since Day skipper + is deemed to be harder and further up the learning tree, its was picked as the sailing cruiser entry

Note that if your sailing cruiser doesnt have an engine, you will not get the power endorsement. if you do your ICC on a pure power boat like a big mobo, you will only get a power endorsement.

I dont agree with your distinction, is more a function of how the UK RYA fitted its existing structures into the ICC categories.

Furthermore. if you demonstrate competency on a motor driven sailboat , as you are required to do ( mooring, steering etc) then that does indeed give you basic competency on a mobo. I bet most sailors could dock a mobo, but few mobo owners can sail.

again what you decry is the RYA fitting in its training structure into the ICC not a fault with the ICC itself.

dave PB1, PB2, APB, DS, YM, YMO, Commercial YM, ASA101-104, ICC( all categories including CEVNI)!!!! ( radar instructor, vhf instructor, cruising instructor ) VHF ROC GOC, Ham!! ( and there just the hobby ones!!)
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Old 16-08-2013, 14:34   #195
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

I'm not trying to say the RYA is to blame, or that there was even anything they can really do about it apart perhaps from refusing to be involved. I just feel that self-regulation in UK recreational boating works very well, in that anyone can see that as a sailor I'm not really competent to drive a 500hp mobo, in fact I'd probably be a bloody menace. I know that, and any sensible charterer knows that. I don't think that having a little piece of paper come in the post that states that I am competent can have any positive impact on safety, potentially exactly the opposite. Whatever its overall impact on safety is, in this situation clearly the ICC is not much help. As a way for Croatian charterers to filter out the least qualified skippers it probably does work... up to a point.

You are far better qualified to talk about this than I am, so I know pretty well who anyone reading this will choose to trust.
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