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Old 12-08-2013, 09:30   #151
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

Well, i hold 2 licenses, and i remember my days sailing with only RDF as a the only way to get a fix without a sextant , and i remember when Magellan made that 5200x bulky gps and thx god we trhow away that Loran overboard.. This days are gone, even trying to teach novice crews are sometimes a waste of time , others are very curious about paper charts, datums, corrections, lat, long, stars etc.. This days we got 2 kind of sailors, the 1 who learn basic navigation and seamamship skills inded taking advantage of the new electronic gizmos, and the one who get a license without sea experience and rely only in the Ploter and gps.

Its a fact , the days when we seat in the chart table after a passage doing waypoint work in a paper chart doing corrections and consulting notes or cruising guides are gone for many out there, now the norm, is 8 am wake up, Cofee, turning on Plotter , pulling up anchor, starting diesel, calling the wife or crew to remove sail cover, and lets goo!!!
Insane the last episodes of grounding boats and disasters due lack of seamanship skills ... I love my gps`s and i like to much my plotter, but im still doing my homework in the chart table.

In spain as a example there is nothing related to Plotters or Laptops or ipads in their courses, Spain is one of the most restricted and expensive countrys to get a license and this turn in a vast majority giving up to sailing , even with this gov restrictions some people get a top license without experience and rely in the electronics as a 1 source of navigation..

Im still thinking that the market is taking advantage of the mass ignorance in their proper benefit in some cases, Ais conected to radar Ap conected to plotter and 2 laptops interconected with the Gps...electronic techs got a lot of work this days... I can only say that all of the new Gps technology is very nice if you keep your common sense and skills fit...

As always Boatman got the funny quote , Gps as a sole means
of navigation is not posible.
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Old 12-08-2013, 09:30   #152
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

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Your logic would suggest that my brain surgeon, would be quite competent having picked it up from watching a few you tubes and trying his hand on a few drunks or something. Nonsense.
Hmmm, you have a brain surgeon.......................

Consider if anyone was allowed to do neurosurgery. Do you think there would be much correlation between the competence of those that had done a 1 day course and those that had not?

The best would be those that had spent years acquiring the necessary academic and practical skills. As well as having high intelligence and fine motor coordination.

You cannot learn anything meaningful about neurosurgery in a short compulsory course, but people running (and making money out of) sailing courses seem convinced that legislation is the way to produce competent sailors

Only a few countries seem to have resisted the push altogether, but countries like the UK show that a relatively low accident rate (despite difficult conditions generally) can be achieved with little or no compulsory licensing for recreational boaters.
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Old 12-08-2013, 09:39   #153
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Hmmm, you have a brain surgeon.......................

Consider if anyone was allowed to do neurosurgery. Do you think there would be much correlation between the competence of those that had done a 1 day course and those that had not?

The best would be those that had spent years acquiring the necessary academic and practical skills.

You cannot learn anything meaningful about neurosurgery in a short compulsory course, but people running (and making money out of) sailing courses seem convinced that legislation is the way to produce competent sailors

Only a few countries seem to have resisted the push altogether, but countries like the UK show that a relatively low accident rate (despite difficult conditions generally) can be achieved with little or no compulsory licensing for recreational boaters.
The fact is that competency training , especially one that requires on water skills , does work. The UK may not have compulsory competency , but it has a fantastic training system and many sailors have taken part in it. Hence your comment doesn't correlate. The UK also has an extremely competent , accessible and free rescue service. This and the fact that the sea conditions tend to deter chancers

But one only has to see the guy with the 5k 2nd hand sports boat, and a 500 pound chartplotter to realise these cert free days are nearly over

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Old 12-08-2013, 09:44   #154
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
The fact is that competency training , especially one that requires on water skills , does work. The UK may not have compulsory competency , but it has a fantastic training system and many sailors have taken part in it. Hence your comment doesn't correlate. The UK also has an extremely competent , accessible and free rescue service. This and the fact that the sea conditions tend to deter chancers

Dave
Bingo, it a system that works well, but you want to change that and introduce compulsory licensing.
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Old 12-08-2013, 09:46   #155
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Bingo, it a system that works well, but you want to change that and introduce compulsory licensing.
Because the situation is rapidly approaching , where the seeming ease of electronics coupled with cheap boats , means that the ethos of self learning increasing no longer applies.

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Old 12-08-2013, 10:16   #156
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

Like so many discussions here in TF...there's too many sides to keep straight in paragraph by paragraph bantering...there's the theoretical, the practical, the sometimes observed and those that really aren't sure of any of the above and lean to the cautious route.

Have fun!
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Old 12-08-2013, 17:21   #157
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

After 27 years in yachting game I have discovered a couple of things:

The GPS is generally far more reliable than the idiot pressing the buttons.

Even the most experienced of us occasionally has problems entering harbors at night - all those damned lights are confusing, the human mind does play tricks on us, even the most familiar set of lights can become confusing if approached from a different direction than that we are accustomed to.

Perhaps the charter company should look at the way they equip their vessels and perhaps provide a table of waypoints to get their boats back to harbor?
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Old 12-08-2013, 18:01   #158
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

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After 27 years in yachting game I have discovered a couple of things:

The GPS is generally far more reliable than the idiot pressing the buttons.

Even the most experienced of us occasionally has problems entering harbors at night - all those damned lights are confusing, the human mind does play tricks on us, even the most familiar set of lights can become confusing if approached from a different direction than that we are accustomed to.

Perhaps the charter company should look at the way they equip their vessels and perhaps provide a table of waypoints to get their boats back to harbor?
And that's exactly what the GPS is for...in a second it can de-confuse you. Or confuse you if your proficiency in using it is off.

In aviation they teach you at first to never trust your instruments...they will kill you.

After mastering visual flying...they put blinders on you and tell you to trust your instruments with your life.

The combination of the two skills make you a "capable" pilot and correctly combined will keep you alive for the rest of your flying career.

The EXACT same philosophy can be applied to surface navigation.

You last para is dead on with some minor variations!!!!
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Old 12-08-2013, 19:12   #159
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

"But if someone IS going to have electronics on their boat and use them regularly...safely learning how to use them is neither time consuming or difficult. That is if someone shows them how to do it and THEY apply their own safety/risk management limits on how and when to use the simple "options" of basic marine electronics. "

Having been one of those new boaters not all that long ago, I know that it is neither time-consuming nor difficult to learn the strengths and weaknesses of a chart plotter.

That's why I need *proof* to believe that we are surrounded by people who spent the money on them but didn't learn how they work. I just don't believe it. It makes no sense. People get a new boat, buy a new toy like that, and learning what it has to offer is fascinating.

We sound like a bunch of old fogies bleating that "young people today..." (whatever -- every generation has something to whine about the one following it). Those old fogies seem to want to believe that, and people here seem to want to believe that people -- LOTS of people -- buy Chart plotters but don't read the manual.

So someone was on a boat with a new owner who hadn't YET figured out how to use the chart plotter. In that poster's mind, that's where that boater is frozen in time. But in all liklihood, the man has learned about the chart plotter and probably a fair amount more, although I like to believe that as a group, sailors are far superior in knowledge when compared to power boaters.

But I can't prove it. I just like to believe it.
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Old 12-08-2013, 19:20   #160
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

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"But if someone IS going to have electronics on their boat and use them regularly...safely learning how to use them is neither time consuming or difficult. That is if someone shows them how to do it and THEY apply their own safety/risk management limits on how and when to use the simple "options" of basic marine electronics. "

Having been one of those new boaters not all that long ago, I know that it is neither time-consuming nor difficult to learn the strengths and weaknesses of a chart plotter.

That's why I need *proof* to believe that we are surrounded by people who spent the money on them but didn't learn how they work. I just don't believe it. It makes no sense. People get a new boat, buy a new toy like that, and learning what it has to offer is fascinating.

We sound like a bunch of old fogies bleating that "young people today..." (whatever -- every generation has something to whine about the one following it). Those old fogies seem to want to believe that, and people here seem to want to believe that people -- LOTS of people -- buy Chart plotters but don't read the manual.

So someone was on a boat with a new owner who hadn't YET figured out how to use the chart plotter. In that poster's mind, that's where that boater is frozen in time. But in all liklihood, the man has learned about the chart plotter and probably a fair amount more, although I like to believe that as a group, sailors are far superior in knowledge when compared to power boaters.

But I can't prove it. I just like to believe it.
Just not the case.....I know so many sailors that are daysailors and dreamers...6hrs on the water is a big day for them...

Sure...that sounds like many powerboaters too...but it's not a fair comparison...because sailboats are full of sailors...powerboats are full of fisherman, water skiers, scuba divers, and almost every other watersport out there...the boat is just a conveyance...not a passion.

I constantly remind many powerboaters that day trippers are usually not nearly the "boater" that a serious cruiser is...they don't have to be....a day of fun is all they want and need few basic skills to do that.

Generalizing about any segment of the boating population is just that...a gross generalization.
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Old 12-08-2013, 19:24   #161
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pirate Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

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Just not the case.....I know so many sailors that are daysailors and dreamers...6hrs on the water is a big day for them...

Sure...that sounds like many powerboaters too...but it's not a fair comparison...because sailboats are full of sailors...powerboats are full of fisherman, water skiers, scuba divers, and almost every other watersport out there...the boat is just a conveyance...not a passion.


Even I constantly remind powerboaters that day trip are usually not nearly the "boater" that a serious cruiser is...they don't have to be....

Generalizing about any segment of the boating population is just that...a gross generalization.
Stick n Rag Snobbery mate...
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Old 12-08-2013, 19:29   #162
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

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Stick n Rag Snobbery mate...
Used to be that way till I got all growed up....
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Old 13-08-2013, 09:11   #163
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Not really sure how this incident would be categorised, maybe something along the lines of ignoring the real world while head is buried in a computer screen.
This last Saturday, I was towing a jack up rig from one of the North Sea oil fields. The plan was to arrive off the harbour at 1800 which was the top of the tide and slack water.
As we were towing, it was required to have a pilot on my tug, and a pilot on the rig. In addition, two small tugs were made fast to each quarter of the rig.
Pilots boarded at 1445. First thing out pilot does is to set up his laptop chart plotter (our two 27" ECDIS Displays obviously not good enough), and once that is done, he's on his mobile phone. Call finishes and he makes some remarks about me using a paper chart, something to the effect that its a bit old fashioned. Can see we are off to a good start here.
Then another protracted call on his mobile, after which I asked him to do what he was paid for and not use the time on the phone.
He then asks for full power, and also for the two harbour tugs to swing around and assist in the towing. I then voice my concern that by doing this, we'll arrive way to early, he reckons we can slow down later, me, I cant see the point.
Anyway, I'd been on the bridge for 6 hours, the mate turns up at 1550, and after telling him to keep a good eye on the pilot, I shoot down to the cabin for a quick shower. No sooner begun, than the phone goes, and it the mate expressing concern at the pilot. Throw on shorts, grab tee shirt and on the bridge in about 30 seconds. Immediately I see us, the tow, and the other tugs all setting down towards a stbd hand buoy. The pilot is glued to his lap top screen. I holler out to him we are going to land on the buoy, he says his plot looks like we will clear it.
At this point, I basically terminated his engagement, jump into the driving seat, and go hard over to port, and the same time on the VHF to the port quarter tug to come around to stbd and pull like buggery, and for the stbd quarter tug to put the brakes on and try and stem the flood tide.
We miss the buoy, unfortunately, it catches the rig on her stbd quarter and gets hooked up on an anchor rack.
At this point, I'm trying to get the rig back into mid channel and moving astern, this should allow the buoy to fall clear. Both pilots then insist we just continue with the buoy fouled on the rig. I'm now really gobsmacked, fortunately the barge master backs me up. and a couple of minutes later, the buoy is clear.
When all the crap settles down, I then find out whats happened.
Another ship was coming up astern of us and overtaking. Despite there being plenty of sea room, the pilot took the tow over to the extreme stbd side of the channel and slowed down to about a knot through the water, and this was with a knot of flood tide on our port quarter.
What really got me, that when I came on the bridge, within a couple of seconds, I could immediately see that we were being set out of the channel, all you needed to do was line up the buoy with something on the shore, and it was obvious, but for some reason, the "pilot" dis-regarded that one sense which makes it all clear, and instead spends his time staring at a chart plotter screen. Maybe a case of a rabbit in the headlights.
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Old 13-08-2013, 09:29   #164
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SSDD

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Old 13-08-2013, 09:41   #165
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

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What really got me, that when I came on the bridge, within a couple of seconds, I could immediately see that we were being set out of the channel, all you needed to do was line up the buoy with something on the shore, and it was obvious, but for some reason, the "pilot" dis-regarded that one sense which makes it all clear, and instead spends his time staring at a chart plotter screen. Maybe a case of a rabbit in the headlights.
After I have taught set/drift in a classroom I use that technique on the water. Line up your destination with something in the background and maintain that transit. It also works when trying to avoid hitting something like buoy. Constant bearing = collision.
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