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Old 12-08-2013, 05:54   #136
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

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Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Yes...but it's not hard, complicated or dangerous with just a few things to keep in mind.

As I said to Boatman...if you don't like it don't use it....but it's certainly within the grasp of beginning chartplotter users as long as they know it's basic dangers and limitations.

Therein lies the rub, far too many users have no real idea of the limitations or dangers of GPS derived positions or electronic chart issues.

In the past , deriving position and chart plotting required knowledge and understanding, often people were specifically trained to do it. With that training was advice imparted by the trainer, about the issues of accuracy and precision.

Today Joe Finance, just presses the "ON:" button and assumes its all correct and proper.

The hairiest ride I ever had was at 20knots on a new powerboat with the owner glued to the chartplotter. He actually believed what was displayed "was actually out there"!!.

This is why in my view, there is a need for training, possibly compulsory and subsequent certification to ensure these things get understood

dave
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Old 12-08-2013, 06:12   #137
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pirate Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

Actually I was splitting hairs with the GPS statement...
All the GPS does is give you Time/Date/SOG and Lat/Long...
Therefore you need something else to manually plot that info onto... or a gizmo to translate it into a position on a screen chart... hence we have GPS/Chartplotter combo's...
Ergo... GPS as a sole means of navigation is not possible..



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Old 12-08-2013, 06:40   #138
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

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Missed your point?????

Hardly think so.

All these forum quips tend to be misleading because no matter how well intended the reply...theres almost always something left untyped.

Good examples are entering an unfamiliar harbor at night is unseamanlike or as Boatman says sole use of GPS is impossible.

Of course the blanket statement "entering an unfamiliar harbor at night is unseamanlike " is total BS unless you frame it with...if you don't have to...but then the term unseamanlike is better substituted with risk management.

While I can't speak his exact thoughts...the same goes for sole use of GPS. While I can leave my dock, steam 100 miles though difficult waters, and return to it within 3 feet or less much of the time while completely under the hood (as they say in instrument flight training)...to do so for anything but a life and death situation would be a folly. Nobody in their right mind is going to NEVER do an eyeball on some landmark to erify everything is "on course".

So I only usually sneer when someone continues to argue a point where once the "unwritten part of the posts" becomes a little more clear to everyone...even the novices...yet they just keep on going. Much like the gun threads..only I see it in most threads that go more than a couple pages...usually by then...most topics except actually building your own autopilot have covered the thread title topic pretty well.

It's an easy game to look for the one thing someone forgot to say. Include everything possible to say and people will start complaining that your posts are too long.
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Old 12-08-2013, 06:43   #139
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I think there is some confusion. using an AP is not navigation, An AP is a self steering device. I use my AP almost all the time as it lets me con the boat without the " tryanny of the wheel".

I did a transatlantic last year, where we only hand steered for 4 hours in total out of 21 days. The AP did the rest.


Slaving an AP to a route plotted on a GPS derived position displayed on a electronic chart is another thing altogether.

dave

I think the point was combining autopilot with chart plotting. There are plenty of places where that could be done safely as long as everyone on watch knew what they were doing.

Electronics don't make you go stupid, but stupid people can use things stupidly.
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Old 12-08-2013, 06:46   #140
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
I think the point was combining autopilot with chart plotting. There are plenty of places where that could be done safely as long as everyone on watch knew what they were doing.

Electronics don't make you go stupid, but stupid people can use things stupidly.
is not that simple, there is also lack of knowledge or experience to contend with. There is an undeniable tendency that modern navigation aids allow untrained and unskilled "operators" to go places and do things that heretofore would have been difficult or impossible.

This suggests that training is needed.

dave
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Old 12-08-2013, 07:03   #141
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
is not that simple, there is also lack of knowledge or experience to contend with. There is an undeniable tendency that modern navigation aids allow untrained and unskilled "operators" to go places and do things that heretofore would have been difficult or impossible.

This suggests that training is needed.

dave

My statement stands. Using electronics doesn't make you stupid, but stupid people can use good equipment stupidly.

Your examples would be of people using equipment stupidly. And, I think the tendency is not "undeniable." Lots of people claim it, but no one has backed it up.

I've got a chart plotter, and the manual, while not well written or organized, really did show me what I needed to know. It made it very clear, for instance, that you can plot a route right over a reef. Once you've done that, it doesn't really matter whether you hook the thing up to an autopilot or do it yourself -- you're going into a reef.

I think there is a group of mariners who WANT to believe that electronics has leashed a horde of stupid mariners on the rest of us, but the dumbest sailor I ever knew did use his autopilot stupidly (and ended up hitting me when it lurched suddenly while no one was at the helm) -- but he was always stupid, and was most certainly doing stupid things before electronics.

MY contribution to that incident was in not knowing how incredibly stupid he was, or I never would have let him get that close to me. He was acting as if we were in a race -- in fact I think it was his intent to race my boat -- but using autopilot.

Did I mention "stupid?"

Training will not keep people from doing boneheaded things, and if they're not smart enough to understand the bigger picture, one of two things will happen:

either the instructor will fail to cover every single idiotic thing a person can do while using, say, autopilot, or

the student will be just too dumb to absorb it all.

Forrest Gump said it best: stupid is as stupid does. Someone taught Gump how to operate the shrimp boat, but failed to drill into his head to cut the engine if an old, beloved friend suddenly appears on the dock.
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Old 12-08-2013, 07:12   #142
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Ergo... GPS as a sole means of navigation is not possible..
Clever and true.
In the same spirit of stating the obvious that everyone seems to ignore:

A chartplotter is not a GPS (although some have a GPS built in as well).

It is an electronic map.

For most purposes it is just like a paper map. It will do most, if not all the things a paper map will do (depending on the software). Some things are easier, better, quicker on an electronic chart than on a paper chart, for other tasks the opposite is true.

Think of it correctly and you will come to realise it cannot be the evil device that some people make it out to be.
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Old 12-08-2013, 07:22   #143
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Therein lies the rub, far too many users have no real idea of the limitations or dangers of GPS derived positions or electronic chart issues.

In the past , deriving position and chart plotting required knowledge and understanding, often people were specifically trained to do it. With that training was advice imparted by the trainer, about the issues of accuracy and precision.

Today Joe Finance, just presses the "ON:" button and assumes its all correct and proper.

The hairiest ride I ever had was at 20knots on a new powerboat with the owner glued to the chartplotter. He actually believed what was displayed "was actually out there"!!.

This is why in my view, there is a need for training, possibly compulsory and subsequent certification to ensure these things get understood

dave
Absolutely....but like it's said..."you can't fix stupid" and "a man's gotta know his limitations"....well I'll bet there's a bunch more that have been used in CF that also apply....

But leaning to use a chartplotter the safe way and using it to feed the autopilot a track is less than a one day class....I have taught them....so picking it up from a fellow boater or struggling through a manual and baby step practicing is no big deal. Unless you are the boater that asks the worst idiot on the dock because you are a lousy judge of who's who.

I don't use 90% of the stuff they have in todays electronics because I get what I need from the 10%. Others tell me the wonders of all those gizmos...but having learned the old ways and practicing it routinely for at least 35 years of electronic nav (mostly aircraft back then...and when I mean aircraft...heck a lot of my flying time was at 200 feet altitude over the water or less groping around in the low fog just like boaters)....my subconscious does a lot of that "gizmo" stuff. So yes...I find the dangerous ones are the one's trying to substitute market drive electronic "gizmos" for experience and knowledge (wisdom). Thus my statement that a handheld GPS and chart with a notepad can get you safely into any harbor at night/fog as long as you are "wise" enough and have done a lot of homework prior to the sea buoy.

Learning the safe way to do a lot of things isn't really taught/learned...until some government regulation steps in. Regulatory compliance could be down the road...but I doubt it. That is unless you want to start that "required" school with me and buy a lobbyist to convince governments to force insurance companies to mandate "our" training to all.....

Essentially I agree that people need to know their limitations and sail/boat within them....

But if someone IS going to have electronics on their boat and use them regularly...safely learning how to use them is neither time consuming or difficult. That is if someone shows them how to do it and THEY apply their own safety/risk management limits on how and when to use the simple "options" of basic marine electronics.
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Old 12-08-2013, 07:44   #144
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

[QUOTE=Rakuflames;1308951]My statement stands. Using electronics doesn't make you stupid, but stupid people can use good equipment stupidly.

Using electronics may not make someone stupid, but it does make a lot of boaters careless bordering on the verge of stupidity. Whilst I have no problem with S/V Jedi plotting a route into an unfamiliar harbor (I know he will be keeping watch at the same time and be read to override the AP), a number of others will set the thing and then just expect it to go smoothly.

The "let's go electronics" concept also means that you lose your skills to do other kinds of navigation, pilotage etc. Unless of course you continue to practice, which most, sadly, do not.
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Old 12-08-2013, 07:53   #145
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

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Learning the safe way to do a lot of things isn't really taught/learned...until some government regulation steps in. Regulatory compliance could be down the road...but I doubt it. That is unless you want to start that "required" school with me and buy a lobbyist to convince governments to force insurance companies to mandate "our" training to all.....
Im not pushing regulatory compliance per say.

Any competent training is ALWAYS better then no training. Equally many countries do have mandatory competency training and certification to varying degrees of capability.

IN my view training to ICC level should be mandatory for any trip in reduced visibility or out of teh sight of land. There are simply too many boaters out there, that havent a clue,

Dave
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Old 12-08-2013, 07:57   #146
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

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I've got a chart plotter, and the manual, while not well written or organized, really did show me what I needed to know. It made it very clear, for instance, that you can plot a route right over a reef. Once you've done that, it doesn't really matter whether you hook the thing up to an autopilot or do it yourself -- you're going into a reef.
yes but how many people undertsand the accuracy of GPS position fixing, how many undertsand what HDOP/VDOP implies, how many understand that say the EPE stated on a Garmin plotter is a statisically derived number and that the stupid green ring does NOT mean that at all times your fixes are inside that. Ask , youll find very few.

Then ask about electronic ( or paper charts) is it corrected and to when, what underlying chart is being referenced and how accurate is that. etc etc, correct datums, etc etc

Then add user errors in datum selection, lat /lot entry etc ext

sorry its not as simple as just perusing a badly written manual.

dave
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Old 12-08-2013, 08:24   #147
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post

IN my view training to ICC level should be mandatory for any trip in reduced visibility or out of teh sight of land. There are simply too many boaters out there, that havent a clue,

Dave
I get to observe a lot of sailors from many different nationalities on a daily basis. There is little correlation between the compulsory pieces of paper that the governments force them to acquire and the competence they display.

If forced to choose, I would even suggest an inverse relationship. The least proficient sailors seem to come from the countries with the strictest compulsory licensing requirements.
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Old 12-08-2013, 08:35   #148
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pirate Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

A friend of mine walked out of a Portuguese sailing course because he disagreed with the old fashioned things they taught.. he'd crewed with me delivering his boat from France... and felt my Notebook CP/GPS and cavalier attitude was all that was needed..
Could not understand me saying... learn what they teach.. pass the exam.. then decide what's good and what's not...
Needless to say 2yrs marina fee's on he's getting rid of the boat..
You can lead the horse to water.. but you can't make em drink..
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Old 12-08-2013, 08:36   #149
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Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

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I get to observe a lot of sailors from many different nationalities on a daily basis. There is little correlation between the compulsory pieces of paper that the governments force them to acquire and the competence they display.

If forced to choose, I would even suggest an inverse relationship. The least proficient sailors seem to come from the countries with the strictest compulsory licensing requirements.
Your logic would suggest that my brain surgeon, would be quite competent having picked it up from watching a few you tubes and trying his hand on a few drunks or something. Nonsense.

Leave out the "big gubberment" nonsense. Proper tuition, just like it benefits engineers, doctors, lawyers and brain surgeons , also benefits would be sailors.

Learning ( being taught) is a valuable process.

A Yachtmaster with experience, is always better then just a yachts man with experience.


( and theres a reason most RYA courses now focus on electronic nav, ...they get asked about it all the time )
dave
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Old 12-08-2013, 08:45   #150
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pirate Re: GPS as the Sole Means of Navigation.

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Your logic would suggest that my brain surgeon, would be quite competent having picked it up from watching a few you tubes and trying his hand on a few drunks or something. Nonsense.

Leave out the "big gubberment" nonsense. Proper tuition, just like it benefits engineers, doctors, lawyers and brain surgeons , also benefits would be sailors.

Learning ( being taught) is a valuable process.

A Yachtmaster with experience, is always better then just a yachts man with experience.


( and theres a reason most RYA courses now focus on electronic nav, ...they get asked about it all the time )
dave
Being a working seaman... I must agree... if they did not know so much and stopped discarding 'unfit for the purpose boats' I'd be outa work..

Edit... and I say that in the best possible taste
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